Atheists are not to blame for violence (From Bournemouth Echo)

Atheism is to blame.

Lack of God centred spirituality is to blame.

People are out of touch with their spiritual selves and humanity is being manipulated and deceived by forces they dont understand.

l started attending Sunday school at age 4 and became a choir boy at 9 singing in church twice every sunday plus funerals and other services.l prayed several times a day and before bed every night.l then started to think about all the children that were born with downes syndrome and other afflictions and close friends and relatives who had succumbed to cancer.l despaired at the millions killed by drought, famine, tsunamis and earthquakes etc.l am angry about the millions who have been tortured,maimed and killed in the name of religion and am disgusted at the genocide that is still prevelent.l have concluded that god is either powerless to prevent these tradgedies in which case he is not the almighty person that he is claimed to be,or he could prevent these events but chooses not to which makes him a cruel and callous father.Although l have turned my back on religion,l am still the same person i have always been.l still try to live by a high moral code and have no intention of becoming a murder ,rapist or rioter so why am l considerd "wicked"?

Richard Scott can no doubt defend himself, but his intelligemt approach deserves better than the simplistic sloganising from Fiona of Muscliffe

If she wishes to have any credibility perhaps she will tell us what she understands by the term God

If she cannot do that in a way that finds room for human reasoning as for example idicated by the views of Charles Darwrin then she is really stuck in the middle ages

So lets be clear- does she believe in original sin. does she believe in the the Devil or Satan does she believe in the resurredction of the body including all the children murdered at Auschwitz

Does she believe in the virgin birth or the doctrine of the atonement? Does she believe in eternal punishment in the fires of Hell?

Or is she preaching to the rest of us from a stand point of an assumed higher morality

Fiona of Muscliffe seemed very quick off the mark to comment on the letter from Richard Scott; I hope she will comment on the criticism of her views with equal speed; or is she unwilling to engage in discussion which calls on her to show some evidence for what she asserts

Fiona Muscliffe Throop wrote:
Atheism is to blame. Lack of God centred spirituality is to blame. People are out of touch with their spiritual selves and humanity is being manipulated and deceived by forces they dont understand.

Thats a fundementalist attitude to have, and severely limiting in both scope and understanding.
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Can you scientifically PROVE that your god exists? Can you scientifically PROVE that he/she/it is EXACTLY as written in your religeous text?
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The qualification of a form of philosophy called Rationalism really applies here. All things that exist can be measured, proven, calculated and seen. This will include a god. If something THAT big and instrumental DOES exist then there should be proof.
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Now ask yourself: why is there no measure, no calculation, why cant he/she/it be seen, why is there no proof? The answer is simple - there is no god.

grazzer wrote:
l started attending Sunday school at age 4 and became a choir boy at 9 singing in church twice every sunday plus funerals and other services.l prayed several times a day and before bed every night.l then started to think about all the children that were born with downes syndrome and other afflictions and close friends and relatives who had succumbed to cancer.l despaired at the millions killed by drought, famine, tsunamis and earthquakes etc.l am angry about the millions who have been tortured,maimed and killed in the name of religion and am disgusted at the genocide that is still prevelent.l have concluded that god is either powerless to prevent these tradgedies in which case he is not the almighty person that he is claimed to be,or he could prevent these events but chooses not to which makes him a cruel and callous father.Although l have turned my back on religion,l am still the same person i have always been.l still try to live by a high moral code and have no intention of becoming a murder ,rapist or rioter so why am l considerd "wicked"?

There is a God

We were all designed and created.

Things went wrong when humans began doing their own thing-they ended up breaking their connection with the Divine -losing touch with their spiritual nature and losing what is known as alpha-light theta brainwave state which resonates with the pulse of the planet.

The Creator does not see things and value things as humans do- he has no bias he/she looks for the purity of the soul people who have Downs are very precious to him as they radiate innocence and purity of heart.

Hope you can get the gist of what Im saying...

There is a God

We were all designed and created.

Things went wrong when humans began doing their own thing-they ended up breaking their connection with the Divine -losing touch with their spiritual nature and losing what is known as alpha-light theta brainwave state which resonates with the pulse of the planet.

The Creator does not see things and value things as humans do- he has no bias he/she looks for the purity of the soul people who have Downs are very precious to him as they radiate innocence and purity of heart.

Hope you can get the gist of what Im saying...

Didnt mean to post that twice

The website is faulty...

Fiona Muscliffe Throop wrote:
There is a God We were all designed and created. Things went wrong when humans began doing their own thing-they ended up breaking their connection with the Divine -losing touch with their spiritual nature and losing what is known as alpha-light theta brainwave state which resonates with the pulse of the planet. The Creator does not see things and value things as humans do- he has no bias he/she looks for the purity of the soul people who have Downs are very precious to him as they radiate innocence and purity of heart. Hope you can get the gist of what Im saying...

No because you're speaking nonsense. Thats not akin to the all-loving omnipotent figure portrayed in the Bible.
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And Darwin and subsequent biologists have proven that there is no design to life.

Fiona Muscliffe Throop wrote:
Atheism is to blame.

Lack of God centred spirituality is to blame.

People are out of touch with their spiritual selves and humanity is being manipulated and deceived by forces they dont understand.

Dear Fiona,

I feel I must reply to your sweeping statement, tarring me and many of my friends with the same brush as the rioters we all saw on television.

I too condemn the actions of all individuals who took it upon themselves to destroy their local community, but to blame it on a lack of religious faith I find frankly insulting. As I would never consider carrying out such actions, I know whats wrong and right from my up bringing (both parents are atheist), so I have never had any religious guidance.

It would be to easy to argue my point with many examples of extremist religious faith, whos actions have resulted in the loss of property and human life. So I will leave that for another platform.

Isn't one of the core values that Christianity teaches is "love thy neighbour"?

While I have no religious beliefs at all. I do respect those that do and would never publicly decry them as a group as you feel it is acceptable to do.

In truth there are many far reaching social-economic factors that resulted in the terrible scenes that we all witnessed last week, and to simplify them just to lack of "spiritual nature"
shows with all due respect a fundamental misunderstanding of the under lying problems.

I look forward to your reply.

So what meaningful moral principles underpin Fiona of Muscliffe's dogmatic assertions ?
My best interpretation is that belief in God as an answer to our present social ills is a cop-out from a serious debate on what has gone wrong, and to that extent it is actually 'harmful, 'there is no human solution. simply a return to God'

One hundred years ago our Churches were packed with believers in God but then so were the workhouses. prisons and lunatic asylums

I am more than willing to accept that informed Christians played a part in the social improvements that have taken place since then, but then so did and non believers or atheists. and on balance I believe organised Christianity was not the driving force for the way people at the margins were then treated.

I deplore what seems the medieval slant of Fiona of Muscliffe's superficial analysis and her virtual plea to returm to a pre scientific culture

Correction

-was not the driving force for IMPROVING the way people at the margins were then treated

Sorry I disagree atheists are to blame-if the world was run in accordance to the divine will there would be heaven on earth and no evil actions.

___________________

I think a lot of people have been hurt by the organized religions and churchianity and it has turned them against the whole God thing...



Its documented fact that upon death the soul leaves the body there are countless accounts of this happening from people who have died and been revived by medical technology.

Upon dying the soul leaves the body and is taken to be judged.

The Creator is a God of love but also wrath which is difficult for humans to fully acknowledge because it is frightening.

We are all privileged tenants on his/her planet and we owe him everything and he owes us nothing.

Any earthly suffering is only temporary -if you have faith in the teachings of the Christ you will go to live eternally with God thats why it was termed the 'good news'.

As usual Fiona Muscliffe is using the Echo not for comments but to inflict her arrogant unfounded remarks on the unsuspecting readers i only hope that any remaining visitors to Bournemouth after the weekend events do realise that the majority of us live in the real world and its only a few trying to run the asylum

Fiona Muscliffe Throop wrote:
Sorry I disagree atheists are to blame-if the world was run in accordance to the divine will there would be heaven on earth and no evil actions. ___________________ I think a lot of people have been hurt by the organized religions and churchianity and it has turned them against the whole God thing... Its documented fact that upon death the soul leaves the body there are countless accounts of this happening from people who have died and been revived by medical technology. Upon dying the soul leaves the body and is taken to be judged. The Creator is a God of love but also wrath which is difficult for humans to fully acknowledge because it is frightening. We are all privileged tenants on his/her planet and we owe him everything and he owes us nothing. Any earthly suffering is only temporary -if you have faith in the teachings of the Christ you will go to live eternally with God thats why it was termed the 'good news'.

And now you're just trolling. Nonsense, every last word you've written. You dont need god or faith to be a good and moral person, you dont need it to be a hard worker.
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What "fact" is there that there is even a soul? Fairy and pixie talk.

Fiona of Muscliffe cannot be allowed to get away with such hopelessly confused dogma, and that is what it is . the remnants of a medieval view of the world where priests believed that the burning and torturing of non believers or heretics was justified if it saved them from the torment of Hell

So does she believe in the reality of Hell and eternal punishment. a straight yes or no will be sufficient.
I assume that she visits a dentist and if need be goes to a doctor and in that sense lives in the real world created by man's intelligence or does she prefer to pick and choose those parts which support her prejudices?

Gordon Cann wrote:
Fiona of Muscliffe cannot be allowed to get away with such hopelessly confused dogma, and that is what it is . the remnants of a medieval view of the world where priests believed that the burning and torturing of non believers or heretics was justified if it saved them from the torment of Hell So does she believe in the reality of Hell and eternal punishment. a straight yes or no will be sufficient. I assume that she visits a dentist and if need be goes to a doctor and in that sense lives in the real world created by man's intelligence or does she prefer to pick and choose those parts which support her prejudices?

I'm more than happy for someone to have faith, I have several Christian, Muslim and a couple of Hindu friends. The difference is when it comes to promotion - if someone wants to beleive, fine by me, but they must not do as Fiona has and write a load of gobbledy goop and try and pass it off as fact.
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That is immoral.
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Personally I'd rather people put their efforts into science and discovery

Look again at that dot.That's here. That's home .That.s us..On it everyone
you love ,everyone you have ever heard of,every human being who ever was lived out their lives....the Earth is
a very small stage in a cosmic arena...our posturings. our imagined self importance. the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe are challenged by this point of pale light.. to me it underscores our responsibilty to deal more kindly with one another and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot ;the only home we've ever known

(Carl Sagan)

Two points that you need correcting on Richard.

One - "...approach life using reason, evidence ( such as that for evolution)".
There is no evidence for evolution, even the scientists have found none whatsoever, it is wholly a theroy, no facts.

Two - God is real but only identifies Himself to those who invite Him into their hearts. He is not just a story book character that you either believe in or not as you please. Just because someone chooses not to believe in Him, does not make Him any the less real, as many, many people will discover when they stand in front of Him when they die. It is those who I feel sorry for although they had their chance to believe when they were alive, but they blew their chance!

Turtlebay wrote:
Two points that you need correcting on Richard. One - "...approach life using reason, evidence ( such as that for evolution)". There is no evidence for evolution, even the scientists have found none whatsoever, it is wholly a theroy, no facts. Two - God is real but only identifies Himself to those who invite Him into their hearts. He is not just a story book character that you either believe in or not as you please. Just because someone chooses not to believe in Him, does not make Him any the less real, as many, many people will discover when they stand in front of Him when they die. It is those who I feel sorry for although they had their chance to believe when they were alive, but they blew their chance!

There is a MASS of evolutionary evidence. Fossil records going back up to 600 million years. They've found the lineage that lead up to the Dolphin, and now understand the vestigial tail in aquatic mammals.
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Mitochondreal DNA has been another parallel investigation that has added to the evidence record of evolution.
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We've even see evolution take place in our own lifetimes. Biology journals have published papers on gecko, moth and bacteria that have evolved.
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Where is your proof that God is real? YOU have to prove the existance otherwise beleif is a little fleeting. A waste of time.

If your last contributor wishes to be taken seriously perhaps he will indicate what evidence he would require to be persuaded that evolution is a fact.

Having done that what does he mean by reality?

Meanwhile go to Lulworth Cove and Stair Hole and look at the rock formation- did it all happen in 4000 years ?

Religion has its roots in fear, perhaps justified fear when man struggled to exist many thousands of years ago, and even to day there is fear implicit in some of yout correspondents views . the fear of judgement and it would seem eternal punishment so I repeat does Fiona of Muscliffe believe in the doctrine of Hell. Yes or No ?

Contributor at 6.38 pm not 'last contributor'

Gordon Cann wrote:
If your last contributor wishes to be taken seriously perhaps he will indicate what evidence he would require to be persuaded that evolution is a fact. Having done that what does he mean by reality? Meanwhile go to Lulworth Cove and Stair Hole and look at the rock formation- did it all happen in 4000 years ? Religion has its roots in fear, perhaps justified fear when man struggled to exist many thousands of years ago, and even to day there is fear implicit in some of yout correspondents views . the fear of judgement and it would seem eternal punishment so I repeat does Fiona of Muscliffe believe in the doctrine of Hell. Yes or No ?

The service can take a while to update, cant it.
:-)
Scientists studying the brain have found a curious "god zone" that they think may be responsible for many of the beleifs people have ended up with. Its thought to be an evolutionary measure to fight the anxiety of fear of death etc.
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One Doc is triggering it with electro magnetic pulses over the temporal lobes. This has had results from simple euphoria right up to full-on visions of angels and demons.
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Absolutely fascinating. Horizon did a program on this about 3 years ago.

Fiona of Muscliffe has made several comments following the letter from Richard Scott but has so far declined to answer the question put to her as to whether she believes in the idea of Hell and everlasting punishment

I press her on that point as it is implicit in the notion of God and judgement. simply because i believe she and other of your correspomdents owe people like RIchard Scott and other contributors an apology for the view that only a return to God will solve our current problems

In sayiing that I believe atheists , humanists and the general body of non believers are on the whole more engaged with problems of the real world than organised religion .

I pay tribute to such people as the Salvation Army, Quakers and indeed Christians from all denomintaions , who have enaged with the world but I deeply resent the rather patronising nonsesne that atheists are to blame for this country's probelms.