The full transcript of the stormy meeting that's sparked a no-confidence vote in council leader

It resulted in a motion of no confidence against the leader of the council, Ray Nottage, from opposition leader, Cllr Colin Bungey.

Here are all the questions to the leader of the council, including two on the Highcliffe beach hut scheme.

1) Colin Bungey: Is the leader able to reassure members that no proposals or decisions have been taken by the leaders of Christchurch, Poole and Bournemouth in their discussions over these many months since the idea was first floated as to how the new super council would be managed and operated?

Ray Nottage: I am pleased to give the reassurance that I have not been party to any such discussions.

2) Colin Bungey: If that is the case, can he explain why it is that Bournemouth councillors have been receiving regular, detailed briefings over several months on what decisions will need to be taken by the leaders on matters such as leadership and deputy leadership of the new council and what proposals might be possible for the management of the new super council should it happen, and why the members of this council have not received the same courtesy of the same briefing?

Ray Nottage: I can just repeat the point that I have made. I am pleased to give the reassurance that I have not been party to any such discussions.

3) David Jones: Can the leader confirm that his previous unwanted and unnecessary proposal to erect large beach huts has been terminated and that no further action should be taken on that proposal?

Ray Nottage: I think the councillor gives me far too much credit. The council adopted a Christchurch and Hinterland management plan in 2008, this was updated in 2014. Beach huts were included in that original plan.

A report to the community services committee in May 2013 entitled Harbour and Coastal Foreshore Future Policy gave more detail to the 2008/2014 plan and included the development of beach huts at Highcliffe.

Further the Community Services committee received a report and presentation entitled 'Highcliffe beach and Chewton Bunny scoping report' which was the first request for support for the project following in depth briefings from officers for any councillors who wished to attend.

The December 2, 2015 resources committee received a report with a request to allocate funding for the project. Both committee votes were unanimous.

On December 15, the minutes of the meetings were received by full council and accepted unanimously.

Highcliffe ward councillors will be updating me at a meeting on September 17 as to what direction they will recommend to the controlling group in respect of this whole issue.

David Jones: I fear that the leader has perhaps does not do enough himself enough credit on this because the schemes that were posed did not mention the large beach huts of the type that suddenly saw the light of day and it is important to stress that not all councillors took the decision on that as the chief executive kindly pointed out to us...

Mayor, Trish Jamieson: Can you ask a question...

David Jones: The council noted the minutes not ratified them. However, we have to agree to differ on that...

Deputy leader, Claire Bath: Point of order please Madam mayor, there should be a question, he is making a statement, which has gone on for some time...

4) David Jones: Would the leader not agree that the final verdict on these beach huts, whether good, bad or whatever, should be left to the electorate of Christchurch, but isn't it a pity that the 'plan on the sand' means there will not be any more elections in Christchurch if it is implemented?

Ray Nottage: I do not understand the question. I think it worth mentioning also that I was tasked by the Policy and Resources committee with Cllr Watts, Cllr Phipps and Cllr Bath to resolve the issue and that was achieved.

However we take no credit as the matter was handled in partnership with officers who in my opinion acted in an exemplary way throughout.

Can I also point out that the issue of beach huts is also something which is included in the plans from a 'Vision for Highcliffe', which was prepared by the Highcliffe residents some time ago. Highcliffe Centre Partnership. And here is it prepared by the people of Highcliffe in which was included beach huts.

5) David Jones: Will the leader tell the council when he last attended a meeting of Highcliffe Residents Association?

Ray Nottage: I regard residents associations as the domain of ward councillors. I attend when invited by ward councillors or the association, always deferring my acceptance to the ward councillor. In the case of HRA I attended a number of meetings in 2012 when in mine and others opinion the relationship between the councillors and association was strained. The last was in spring 2014.

David Jones: If the leader does next attend the Highcliffe Residents Association, I do hope he will take the opportunity...

Mayor, Trish Jamieson: Not a question...

David Jones: If he does, query, conditional...

Mayor, Trish Jamieson - I think you are playing with words (murmurings from other councillors)

David Jones: You know it really does take me back looking at some of my colleagues opposite to when I was teaching a fifth form.

I will pass that question but I reserve the right to raise it again.

6) David Jones: According to Bournemouth Echo of 16 September 2015, talks concerning the establishment of a Greater Bournemouth Council - and to help the leader, by Greater Bournemouth Council I mean a unitary authority encompassing Poole, Bournemouth and one or two of the district councils - had been underway for the previous month before the leader met his colleagues from Poole and Bournemouth. Can the leader confirm or refute this statement please?

Ray Nottage: I think the councillor is asking me to confirm a statement made by a reporter from the Echo. That I find difficult, because I didn't say it. But I can confirm that at that time intense discussions were underway over the combined council encompassing all nine Dorset councils. Certainly the subject of local government would have been part of the debate or discussion. None are referred to as the Greater Bournemouth Council. I would encourage all members to use the consultation document to avoid creating confusion among the public.

7) David Jones: I think there is no confusion at all among the public.

However, Christchurch Borough Council have not authorised the leader to participate in talks about a unitary authority as opposed to a combined authority, the electorate has not voted on them. What authority did the leader have to enter into those specific talks?

Ray Nottage: The councillor will recall that in July I reported to the controlling group that I had received a mandate to continue work with other Dorset leaders on the possible local government reorganisation.

I also had corresponding meetings with the Conservative agent and subsequent meetings with her and the executive officer of the Conservative association and that is when I got the mandate to stay in the mix.

Colin Bungey: Point of order, what the leader has just said does not include the full council. I know the opposition is small; it was not the full council, it was a private meeting of the group.

8) David Jones: This touches on the consultative document. Can the leader tell us whether as was said by the presenter at the meeting in Dorchester, was the consultation document a document produced by officers, or a political document authorised by elected councillors?

Bernie Davis: That is the wrong date.

Trevor Watts: This question is not the one we have in front of us, therefore that question was not taken in a correct timescale. He has to ask the question in front of us, can he ask the question please?

David Jones: I think the thrust of the question is clear. Is the consultation document a council document or not?

Ray Nottage: Again, I am finding it difficult to understand what you are asking.

I can't confirm what the representative said because I did not say it. I can say that the professional organisation ORS (Opinion Research Services) was appointed to undertake consultation work and advised on the consultation document and facilitated leaders discussion on it as drafted by officers of all the nine councils. The document was signed off by the leaders.

9) David Jones: Would he not agree that the leaders are not the council and would he not agree that it would be better if this document be brought to this council for this council to have an input on it as it does on nearly every other consultation undertaken?

Ray Nottage: I repeat what I said, ORS were appointed to undertake the consultation work. They are a professional organisation, they advise on the document and facilitated leaders discussions on its content as drafted by officers of all the nine councils. The document was signed off by the leaders.

David Jones: I would like to thank the leader for his answers even if he did not answer all the questions.

10) Denise Jones: I would like to ask the leader, will he confirm that if what some describe as his dream for a greater Bournemouth comes to pass, then planning policy and housing will become the responsibility of the new South East Dorset Unitary Authority.

Ray Nottage: The councillor was in attendance at the officer briefing last week when the matter of what any new council will be responsible for was explained by officers.

Madam mayor I do not dream about local government. I have never met anyone that has suggested that is the case. Mine is a very pragmatic view of how we can establish acceptable and sustainable service levels for our communities and maintain value for money through this continuing period of austerity.

If local government reorganisation goes ahead in Dorset then the current responsibilities of the nine principle councils of which Christchurch is one, will become those of the two new unitary councils. We are consulting the public...of the three options which see changes being made, none are referred to as the South East Dorset Unitary Authority. Again I would encourage all members to use terms in the consultation document to avoid creating confusion among the public.

Denise Jones: I was interested in your reply and I am somewhat bemused by the fact that you said we have the choice...

Trish Jamieson: Question please...

11) Denise Jones: Would the leader please confirm that staying the same is an option?

Ray Nottage: I am trying the best I can to give you a sensible answer which is aligned to the documents which you and the public have seen. I suggest that if you have any concerns about the options or the publication of those documents you refer to officers or myself and we can give you assurances by letter.

Trevor Watts: Point of order madam chairman, I remember going to a briefing not so long ago from the chief executive who said there are two choices on the document, he said if you want no change, you can have no change.

Mayor, Trish Jamieson: This is not a point of order councillor.

Trevor Watts: I apologise.

12) Janet Abbott: One of the advantages claimed for the creation of unitary councils is that there will be a greater accountability for the councils to the electorate. Will the leader explain how this works when in Christchurch at present there is approximately one councillor for every 1,600 electors including county councillors.

Whereas in a South East Dorset Unitary there is one councillor for approximately 4,800 electors and the authorities will be much more remote than the borough council.

This will be much more remote. Isn't taking power away from the people by reducing representatives exactly the same principle as in the European Parliament, rejected by millions of people less than three months ago?

Ray Nottage: It is a very interesting question and one I am pleased to comment on. However, I would ask you please to take into consideration the point I made earlier on about linking the statement made to the consultation documents to avoid public confusion. The suggestion that creating unitary councils would provide greater accountability is not related to the number of electors per councillor but rather than a single tier of local government would be clearer to the public than the current two tier system.

One council delivering all services with one set of accountable elected representatives.

The number of councillors included in any of the preferred options would have to be decided. I do take on board that the level of representation will change. Fewer councillors might mean larger wards. One option to be considered is the creation of town councils for the unparished areas of the borough.

This council could deliver important local services as well as maintain the long and treasured mayoralty.

This applies to existing parish councils who, again in my opinion, see this as an opportunity to deliver more efficient local services to their community.

13) Janet Abbott: You can confirm that it is not necessary two thirds of our councillors made redundant, and if that was to be the case who would decide who goes?

Ray Nottage: I find the word redundant quite interesting because councillors are not employed and if councillors are concerned about the loss of their income then I think we are totally in the wrong dimension. What we are talking about now is the better delivery of services. More accountable to local population by the local representatives. We are talking about achieving sustainability for the next 20 odd years which is going to be difficult through this austerity period.

So I think possibly it would be worth the councillor reflecting on the second question. Redundancy, jobs of councillors really don't come into this.

14) Lesley Dedman: As councillors we have heard a lot about the Gunning Principles. Can the leader tell us how the principle 'adequate time must be given for consideration and response ' is being adhered to when residents are only given an eight week consultation period?

Ray Nottage: Again, members were briefed quite clearly about the Gunning Principles last week. Firstly so we must all understand what is enshrined in law the Gunning Principles are this.

(runs through principles) That's the principles. The current Cabinet Office guidance 2012 updated in 2016 does not state a minimum of 12 weeks is required but encourages a consultation of between two and 12 weeks with a general requirement that they should be proportionate to the potential impacts of the proposals being considered.

Advice we have received from ORS is that 8 weeks is sufficient time to consult.

15) Lesley Dedman: I too have read the Cabinet Office principles 2016 Paragraph E.

Does he really believe that the next part of the paragraph on that page - 'consulting too quickly will not give enough time for consideration and will reduce the quality of responses'? Does the leader really believe that eight weeks is enough with Christchurch people having to consider and respond to something which will be life changing for people of the borough?

Ray Nottage: I think I take advice from a professional organisation that we employ to actually instruct us who have a very high reputation in macro government and local government across the country.

16) Lesley Dedman: We seem to be stressing the Gunning Principles. My second question was how is the leader following the principle of 'sufficient evidence to be put forward for the proposal to allow for 'intelligent consideration and response' when we haven't got a business case as yet?

Ray Nottage: I think the councillor knows it is not the leader who follows Gunning it is the consultation. And I am sure that was a slip of the pen or the tongue. I just take recommendations and apply them to consultation.

This consultation process does follow the Gunning Principles. It focuses on whether public and stakeholders believe there is case for change in reducing the number of councils from nine to two and which three main options they believe would be preferred by them. All nine council leaders considered that the document which accompanies the questionnaire gave information in an accessible form to enable residents to consider whether there is a case for change. This is based on professional advice from ORS.

17) Lesley Dedman: I actually queried the business case not being included, not the rest of the information. But what I was asking the leader is that, is he saying the figures in the documentation which are internally provided and are assumptions, are sufficient evidence?

Ray Nottage: The detailed financial modelling undertaken by local partnerships which is available on Shaping your Councils website is further information to assist residents in considering the options.

The councils have chosen not to produce a business case indicating a preferred option in advance of the consultation, as this would influence the consultation itself and compromise the first Gunning Principle that consultation should be carried out when the proposals are still at formative stage.

Again we take advice from a professional organisation that we employ.

18) Lesley Dedman: How does the leader explain the many statements from various quarters that doing nothing is not an option, thus ruling it out, when it is an option as confirmed by our member of parliament?

Ray Nottage: I understand that the Member of Parliament has made comments in respect of this but the proposals are at a formative stage and no decisions have been made. Where it is stated 'doing nothing is not an option' reference is made to the current financial position of local government across Dorset in that we must take action to protect services to our community whether this is in nine or two councils.

Councillors know well that retaining nine councils does not mean doing nothing or no change, because public expenditure constraints will seriously affect the sustainability of some and indeed many services if all nine councils are retained.

19) Lesley Dedman: I am confused about what the leader is saying. Is he saying that doing nothing is or is not an option?

Ray Nottage: I think I have answered the question.

20) Lesley Dedman: Can the leader explain how the best interests of openness and transparency are served by the leaders meeting to study the consultation result in private in December, and to put forward options to councillors in January? Does he not agree that it would be more democratic and open for councillors to meet in December to mandate the leaders to meet in January?

Ray Nottage: Do you mean all 300 councillors?

Lesley Dedman: I mean...

Ray Nottage: Thank you madam Mayor.

Lesley Dedman: Can I just say I mean the councillors of this council and all the other councillors involved, not together.

Ray Nottage: Do you mean all 300 councillors?

Lesley Dedman: Does the leader think I mean them all to be in one room?

I mean in their separate councils but am talking specifically about Christchurch council because this is where we are.

Ray Nottage: So you are excluding Dorset county councillors of which you are one? I am sorry.

No decision will be made outside the democratic process of all sovereign councils. The evidence being gathered will need to be collated in November 2016 and consideration given to what is the case for change before a report is developed to all councils.

The report and recommendation will be circulated to all members and the public in December 2016.

By planning for meetings in January and February sufficient time will be given for a report to be prepared and properly considered by scrutiny and policy overview committee, policy and resources and full council. If there is support for a cross party working party, members will be fully engaged in the process leading up to that decision-making timetable.

21) Lesley Dedman: Does the leader say then, when he goes to meet the leaders in January, the council will have given him a mandate? So, when the leaders get together all these councillors will have seen the results and will have given a mandate for the leader for him to do what we wish him to do?

Ray Nottage: I don't think I can answer it. I don't know what the results of the consultation will be.

I will be there as leader together with nine other leaders and executive to establish how we communicate the complete process through back to councils.

If the councillor is suggesting to we have a meeting with 300 councillors to assess what is happening with the consultation, that is not going to get us anywhere.

22) Lesley Dedman: I'll give that up. The leader is aware that the number of papers sent out will reach a very small percentage of the population. Is he confident that returns will give a true picture of the whole of our electorate?

Ray Nottage: A professional, experienced, independent consultancy firm with high reputation has been selected to undertake the consultation process. The consultation programme is conscientious and comprehensive in using a wide range of methods to study the opinions and attitudes of the public and stakeholders, including in particular a large household survey sent to 20,000 random selected households.

An open questionnaire available for completion by anyone, deliberative workshops forums with randomly selected residents, meetings, and workshops with businesses and voluntary sector, submissions and petitions; the consultation is not about mere numbers but about the arguments and evidence brought about by the consultation programme process itself. It's success is best measured in terms of the opportunities people have to present their arguments.

23) Lesley Dedman: We all have experts and professionals; I was advised by an expert that in this particular case when he looked at it, the best practice would have been a targeted survey.

Is he telling us that replies of such a small percentage of Dorset's population are statistically sound?

Ray Nottage: Again I have accepted together with our executive, the professional advice of highly respected professional organisation who have been conducting these surveys for many years and have a high reputation in local and macro government.

Questions end

Ray Nottage: May I make a request? I am quite happy to answer questions but if we could have questions of a factual nature, it makes my life a lot easier rather then questions that are slightly ephemeral, or to do with rumours or suggestive of 'he said this and that'.

Could we make sure that officers understand with members that questions have to have some factual basis in accordance with the constitution.

Trish Jamieson: You do actually see the questions before they come to the council.