LOOK WHO'S STALKING...
AN INNOCENT family were spied on for more than two weeks by Poole council - revealing the disturbing extent of its powers to watch residents.
A couple and their three young children were followed, watched at home, and had their movements scrutinised and timed without their knowledge.
Borough of Poole has now admitted to using such "physical surveillance" on residents on six separate occasions over the past year.
The council's justification was that it needed to know if they lived in the correct catchment area for their three-year-old daughter to be accepted at a local school.
The mother, who asked not to be named, was shown a detailed surveillance record, listing her movements almost daily from February 13 to March 3, including school runs with her children and the exact routes they drove.
They were followed more than once, and someone regularly parked outside their home, taking detailed notes such as "female and three children enter target vehicle and drive off" and "curtains open and all lights on in premises".
The report, signed off by a Borough of Poole education officer, also names the couple and their children aged three, six and 10 as subjects for surveillance, authorised under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act. This allows councils to carry out surveillance, but only for the investigation of crimes.
The extent of the council's powers horrified the mother of three.
She said: "I have had nothing to say how long the information will be kept for, who holds it and what the implications of having a RIPA order executed against you are. I'm absolutely incensed.
"To be following us around for nearly three weeks, apart from being very creepy, is a huge infringement of my liberty."
She added: "My daughter is still having trouble sleeping. She's asking if there is a man outside watching us.
"They could have contacted us, or come and knocked on the door rather than opting for surveillance which is completely underhand.
"They could have treated us like human beings and come back for more information."
On Monday the Echo reported Borough of Poole had used the act to gain access to telephone subscription and billing information - but at that time the council did not reveal the use of surveillance.
James Welch, legal director for human rights organisation Liberty, said: "It's one thing for anti-terror police to use covert surveillance, but it has come to a pretty pass when it becomes the tool of the school catchment area police'.
The family have lived in their Parkstone home for a decade and their two eldest children went to the local first school.
Their property, which is in the correct catchment area, was put up for sale, but the couple made sure they remained living there until the end of January to ensure their youngest daughter qualified under Poole's school admission rules. After that, they moved to a property near Westbourne.
They explained the situation to the council and provided bills and documents as requested. At a meeting with a schools admissions manager in mid March they were told they had been under surveillance.
However it was carried out after the council's admissions deadline, so, under the council's own rules, appears to be irrelevant.
Their daughter was accepted at the school.
Tim Martin, head of legal and democratic services, Borough of Poole, said: "On a small number of occasions, RIPA procedures have been used to investigate potentially fraudulent applications for school places. In such circumstances, we have considered it appropriate to treat the matter as a potential criminal matter.
"An investigation may actually satisfy the council that the application is valid, as happened in this case."
The council has carried out physical surveillance on six occasions over the last financial year using RIPA procedures.
This can involve an officer watching a premises for up to three months. Good practice requires that each authorisation should only last as long as is necessary for the collection of evidence.
6:03am Thursday 10th April 2008
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CommentPosted by: PokesdownMark, Pokesdown on 7:50am Thu 10 Apr 08
Gosh interesting story. How much did that all cost?
Its a classic case of scope creep. Many laws brought in for a particular purpose and up being used for other things. Examples are new extradition laws for terrorism that end up being used on business men suspected of fraud. Another example, tasers to be used in place of a lethal weapon that end up being used on people that simply argue back.
So... what were the specifics of this case? Why was this application selected for such scrutiny? Or was it a random sample to test how effective future, wider use of surveillance would be?
Gosh interesting story. How much did that all cost?
Its a classic case of scope creep. Many laws brought in for a particular purpose and up being used for other things. Examples are new extradition laws for terrorism that end up being used on business men suspected of fraud. Another example, tasers to be used in place of a lethal weapon that end up being used on people that simply argue back.
So... what were the specifics of this case? Why was this application selected for such scrutiny? Or was it a random sample to test how effective future, wider use of surveillance would be?
Posted by: fedupwithjobsworths, Moordown on 8:19am Thu 10 Apr 08
This is absolutely outrageous, but this is just another example of how our Councils see themselves as our rulers instead of servants. Poole Council should be spending taxpayers’ money on education so people can send their children to the school of their choice instead of this they spend our money on dictating who goes to which school and employs spies and “Admissions Teams” to enforce their will. It’s time to get rid of these Jobsworths, it’s time local people regained control over their Councils.
This is absolutely outrageous, but this is just another example of how our Councils see themselves as our rulers instead of servants. Poole Council should be spending taxpayers’ money on education so people can send their children to the school of their choice instead of this they spend our money on dictating who goes to which school and employs spies and “Admissions Teams” to enforce their will. It’s time to get rid of these Jobsworths, it’s time local people regained control over their Councils.
Posted by: Quakers, Poole on 8:30am Thu 10 Apr 08
Another sensational Echo headline - 6 cases in a year - hardly an epidemic. If people did not try and break rules, the Council would not have to adopt such measures to monitor them. School admissions have always been emotive and its right that Poole residents should get the places in Poole schools. At least the Council did not try and hide the fact they had done this. When will the Echo stop giving the Council's so much grief and stirring things up ? It wastes tax payers money dealing with stupid Echo stories and April fools jokes which results in people contacting the Council uneccesarily. Its time the Echo act more responsibly.
Another sensational Echo headline - 6 cases in a year - hardly an epidemic. If people did not try and break rules, the Council would not have to adopt such measures to monitor them. School admissions have always been emotive and its right that Poole residents should get the places in Poole schools. At least the Council did not try and hide the fact they had done this. When will the Echo stop giving the Council's so much grief and stirring things up ? It wastes tax payers money dealing with stupid Echo stories and April fools jokes which results in people contacting the Council uneccesarily. Its time the Echo act more responsibly.
Posted by: oscar99, bournemouth on 8:43am Thu 10 Apr 08
so being in the wrong catchment area is a crime then ??? i bet that cost a few grand might aswell but it on a big bonfire
so being in the wrong catchment area is a crime then ??? i bet that cost a few grand might aswell but it on a big bonfire
Posted by: JamesR, Poole on 8:43am Thu 10 Apr 08
How can the council carry this out under RIPA, if RIPA can only be used for the investigation of crimes. I dont see what the crime is. Surely Poole Council habve broken the law by incorrectly using this legislation
How can the council carry this out under RIPA, if RIPA can only be used for the investigation of crimes. I dont see what the crime is. Surely Poole Council habve broken the law by incorrectly using this legislation
Posted by: Quakers, Poole on 8:54am Thu 10 Apr 08
Another sensational Echo headline - 6 cases in a year - hardly an epidemic. If people did not try and break rules, the Council would not have to adopt such measures to monitor them. School admissions have always been emotive and its right that Poole residents should get the places in Poole schools. At least the Council did not try and hide the fact they had done this. When will the Echo stop giving the Council's so much grief and stirring things up ? It wastes tax payers money dealing with stupid Echo stories and April fools jokes which results in people contacting the Council uneccesarily. Its time the Echo act more responsibly.
Another sensational Echo headline - 6 cases in a year - hardly an epidemic. If people did not try and break rules, the Council would not have to adopt such measures to monitor them. School admissions have always been emotive and its right that Poole residents should get the places in Poole schools. At least the Council did not try and hide the fact they had done this. When will the Echo stop giving the Council's so much grief and stirring things up ? It wastes tax payers money dealing with stupid Echo stories and April fools jokes which results in people contacting the Council uneccesarily. Its time the Echo act more responsibly.
Posted by: Ed, Bournemouth on 9:03am Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Quakers[/bold] wrote:
Another sensational Echo headline - 6 cases in a year - hardly an epidemic. If people did not try and break rules, the Council would not have to adopt such measures to monitor them. School admissions have always been emotive and its right that Poole residents should get the places in Poole schools. At least the Council did not try and hide the fact they had done this. When will the Echo stop giving the Council's so much grief and stirring things up ? It wastes tax payers money dealing with stupid Echo stories and April fools jokes which results in people contacting the Council uneccesarily. Its time the Echo act more responsibly.[/quote] And you are which Councillor ?
Quakers wrote:
Another sensational Echo headline - 6 cases in a year - hardly an epidemic. If people did not try and break rules, the Council would not have to adopt such measures to monitor them. School admissions have always been emotive and its right that Poole residents should get the places in Poole schools. At least the Council did not try and hide the fact they had done this. When will the Echo stop giving the Council's so much grief and stirring things up ? It wastes tax payers money dealing with stupid Echo stories and April fools jokes which results in people contacting the Council uneccesarily. Its time the Echo act more responsibly.
And you are which Councillor ?
Posted by: John, Poole on 9:04am Thu 10 Apr 08
Instead of stalking children, Poole Council would be far better employed surveilling the activity, or rather inactivity, of their Councillors. I refer,of course, to Sham Worthy Cllr. Roger Gregory who spends 3 months a year holidaying in South Africa at Poole Council Taxpayers' expense! Furthermore, what a jolly it could prove to be for a Council Officer to follow him on holiday to South Africa!
Instead of stalking children, Poole Council would be far better employed surveilling the activity, or rather inactivity, of their Councillors. I refer,of course, to Sham Worthy Cllr. Roger Gregory who spends 3 months a year holidaying in South Africa at Poole Council Taxpayers' expense! Furthermore, what a jolly it could prove to be for a Council Officer to follow him on holiday to South Africa!
Posted by: Quakers, Poole on 9:06am Thu 10 Apr 08
I'm not a Councillor and many frustrate me but if this Gov keeps passing stupid legislation then Councils have to be policemen as not all residents are as trustworthy as you are. And Ed short for Editor of the Echo ?
I'm not a Councillor and many frustrate me but if this Gov keeps passing stupid legislation then Councils have to be policemen as not all residents are as trustworthy as you are. And Ed short for Editor of the Echo ?
Posted by: John, Poole on 9:10am Thu 10 Apr 08
And Quakers short for Quackers?
And Quakers short for Quackers?
Posted by: cookie75, Poole on 9:18am Thu 10 Apr 08
Quaker. This is a massive story that should be in the nationals. It is just typical of the insidious nasty vindictive criminalisation of normal decent people in this country only bought about by Labour and its rag bag of politically correct evil followers over the last 10 years. It is also indicative of the decriminalisation of the real scum in this country, the scum that Labour love to protect and prosper. Typical socialism and communism. This is just the start of, if you dont toe the party line then you will be classed as an insurgent or subversive. This country has been completely ruined by Labour over the last 10 yrs and it will get worse. Problem has been that they decimated such a weak pathetic opposition called the conservatives. Now there is a Tony Blair MKII in charge of them, a weak useless Public schoolboy. So much for democracy!
Quaker. This is a massive story that should be in the nationals. It is just typical of the insidious nasty vindictive criminalisation of normal decent people in this country only bought about by Labour and its rag bag of politically correct evil followers over the last 10 years. It is also indicative of the decriminalisation of the real scum in this country, the scum that Labour love to protect and prosper. Typical socialism and communism. This is just the start of, if you dont toe the party line then you will be classed as an insurgent or subversive. This country has been completely ruined by Labour over the last 10 yrs and it will get worse. Problem has been that they decimated such a weak pathetic opposition called the conservatives. Now there is a Tony Blair MKII in charge of them, a weak useless Public schoolboy. So much for democracy!
Posted by: fedupwithjobsworths, Moordown on 9:24am Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Quakers[/bold] wrote:
Another sensational Echo headline - 6 cases in a year - hardly an epidemic. If people did not try and break rules, the Council would not have to adopt such measures to monitor them. School admissions have always been emotive and its right that Poole residents should get the places in Poole schools. At least the Council did not try and hide the fact they had done this. When will the Echo stop giving the Council's so much grief and stirring things up ? It wastes tax payers money dealing with stupid Echo stories and April fools jokes which results in people contacting the Council uneccesarily. Its time the Echo act more responsibly.[/quote] Well its 6 cases to many.
Instead of wasting money persecuting parents who are only trying to get the best for their children they should be spending it sorting out underperforming schools so there wouldn’t be a problem in the first place. Don’t blame parents when the LEA’s are the problem.
Quakers wrote:
Another sensational Echo headline - 6 cases in a year - hardly an epidemic. If people did not try and break rules, the Council would not have to adopt such measures to monitor them. School admissions have always been emotive and its right that Poole residents should get the places in Poole schools. At least the Council did not try and hide the fact they had done this. When will the Echo stop giving the Council's so much grief and stirring things up ? It wastes tax payers money dealing with stupid Echo stories and April fools jokes which results in people contacting the Council uneccesarily. Its time the Echo act more responsibly.
Well its 6 cases to many.
Instead of wasting money persecuting parents who are only trying to get the best for their children they should be spending it sorting out underperforming schools so there wouldn’t be a problem in the first place. Don’t blame parents when the LEA’s are the problem.
Posted by: Ed, Bournemouth on 9:43am Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]cookie75[/bold] wrote:
Quaker. This is a massive story that should be in the nationals. It is just typical of the insidious nasty vindictive criminalisation of normal decent people in this country only bought about by Labour and its rag bag of politically correct evil followers over the last 10 years. It is also indicative of the decriminalisation of the real scum in this country, the scum that Labour love to protect and prosper. Typical socialism and communism. This is just the start of, if you dont toe the party line then you will be classed as an insurgent or subversive. This country has been completely ruined by Labour over the last 10 yrs and it will get worse. Problem has been that they decimated such a weak pathetic opposition called the conservatives. Now there is a Tony Blair MKII in charge of them, a weak useless Public schoolboy. So much for democracy![/quote] But Poole Council is a Conservative run council.
cookie75 wrote:
Quaker. This is a massive story that should be in the nationals. It is just typical of the insidious nasty vindictive criminalisation of normal decent people in this country only bought about by Labour and its rag bag of politically correct evil followers over the last 10 years. It is also indicative of the decriminalisation of the real scum in this country, the scum that Labour love to protect and prosper. Typical socialism and communism. This is just the start of, if you dont toe the party line then you will be classed as an insurgent or subversive. This country has been completely ruined by Labour over the last 10 yrs and it will get worse. Problem has been that they decimated such a weak pathetic opposition called the conservatives. Now there is a Tony Blair MKII in charge of them, a weak useless Public schoolboy. So much for democracy!
But Poole Council is a Conservative run council.
Posted by: christine2009, poole on 9:52am Thu 10 Apr 08
how bad is tht
i am gonna watch myself very closely
how bad is tht
i am gonna watch myself very closely
Posted by: HAL101, Bournemouth on 10:06am Thu 10 Apr 08
cookie75, Poole on 9:18am today
This sort of thing has been going on for many many years. Anyone can hire a private 'eye’ (detective) to spy on some one. When divorces were hard to get (remember those day anyone?) it was commonplace for a private eye to watch the suspected parties and then burst into the bedroom to photograph the guilty pair in mid **** with a large old fashion flash camera which blinded for several minutes.
These old black and white photographs are now worth a fortune and can be viewed on a number of dedicated sites.
At least this outraged mum was spared that !
cookie75, Poole on 9:18am today
This sort of thing has been going on for many many years. Anyone can hire a private 'eye’ (detective) to spy on some one. When divorces were hard to get (remember those day anyone?) it was commonplace for a private eye to watch the suspected parties and then burst into the bedroom to photograph the guilty pair in mid **** with a large old fashion flash camera which blinded for several minutes.
These old black and white photographs are now worth a fortune and can be viewed on a number of dedicated sites.
At least this outraged mum was spared that !
Posted by: HAL101, Bournemouth on 10:11am Thu 10 Apr 08
John, Poole on 9:04am today
Now that is a good suggestion. Where are the telephone numbers of the private eyes?
Quackers! - chuckle chuckle :)
John, Poole on 9:04am today
Now that is a good suggestion. Where are the telephone numbers of the private eyes?
Quackers! - chuckle chuckle :)
Posted by: HAL101, Bournemouth on 10:17am Thu 10 Apr 08
HAL101, Bournemouth on 10:06am today
[bold]'mid ****'[/bold] was not a rude word. It was a medically correct term starting with o and ending with m. It also has g and a and s and a.
This censorship is another example of old practises that go back many decades.
ogasam
HAL101, Bournemouth on 10:06am today
'mid ****' was not a rude word. It was a medically correct term starting with o and ending with m. It also has g and a and s and a.
This censorship is another example of old practises that go back many decades.
ogasam
Posted by: f9073860, bournemouth on 10:28am Thu 10 Apr 08
well done Echo - another fantastic story. Of course readers need to know these things. Whoever said this article was a waste of time or sensationalist or whatever needs to have a good think about themselves.
well done Echo - another fantastic story. Of course readers need to know these things. Whoever said this article was a waste of time or sensationalist or whatever needs to have a good think about themselves.
Posted by: RichT, Christchurch on 10:57am Thu 10 Apr 08
This was probably paid for using taxpayers money. Perhaps the surveillance should be done on members of Poole Council instead, I wonder how they'd like that?
This was probably paid for using taxpayers money. Perhaps the surveillance should be done on members of Poole Council instead, I wonder how they'd like that?
Posted by: Quakers, Poole on 11:02am Thu 10 Apr 08
Well said cookie75. Anyway, lets all take a break from bashing our Local Authorities and Councillors via this site, by spending a few months abroad - where we can actually bash them in person. Quake, Quack, Qwack, Qrack etc
Well said cookie75. Anyway, lets all take a break from bashing our Local Authorities and Councillors via this site, by spending a few months abroad - where we can actually bash them in person. Quake, Quack, Qwack, Qrack etc
Posted by: Carl Barron, Dorset on 11:06am Thu 10 Apr 08
a matter of time be[bold]Quote[/bold] Act. This allows councils to carry out surveillance, but only for the [bold]investigation of crimes.[/bold]
The extent of the council's powers horrified the mother of three.
Borough of Poole has now admitted to using such [bold]"physical surveillance"[/bold] on residents on [bold]six separate occasions[/bold] over the past year.
[bold]Reply[/bold] To use such laws [bold]indiscriminately [/bold] and let the information that such has happened get into the [bold]Public Domain is NOT Accetable[/bold] at all.
[bold]The reputations of many Councils in the UK absolutely reek of Corruption and abuse of powers.[/bold]
[bold]I guessed it was only a matter of time before many such cases of Spying at will would take place because of the following information as to Blunkett giving excessive powers to Councils.
[/bold]
[bold]The business community need also be made aware, that thier e-mails may also be monitored (Electronicaly) at will, and information as to important Contracts pending may will be divulged. Illegally I stress.[/bold]
[bold]However[/bold] As from [bold]19 th February 2001 David Blunkett[/bold] gave all Councils of the UK permission to record at will any telephone evidence they required.
I may not have the correct date exactly, yet I know it was around that time period this law was passed.
They (The Councils) may also [bold]monitor any transmissions (E-Mails and content, etc.)[/bold] from [bold]any premises and record.[/bold]
This Law was passed to cover many scenarios including the fact that many Street CCTV are set to record your conversations when in Public Places hidden mics that can zoom into any relative areas the cameras are set to view.
[bold]Extensive information[/bold] is available on this very subject via [bold]TaskNews[/bold] .
You may find reference to this from TaskNews Hot+Topics
[bold]Copy paste[/bold] link below into browser.
http://uk.geocities.
com/tasknews/
a matter of time be
Quote Act. This allows councils to carry out surveillance, but only for the
investigation of crimes.
The extent of the council's powers horrified the mother of three.
Borough of Poole has now admitted to using such
"physical surveillance" on residents on
six separate occasions over the past year.
Reply To use such laws
indiscriminately and let the information that such has happened get into the
Public Domain is NOT Accetable at all.
The reputations of many Councils in the UK absolutely reek of Corruption and abuse of powers.
I guessed it was only a matter of time before many such cases of Spying at will would take place because of the following information as to Blunkett giving excessive powers to Councils.
The business community need also be made aware, that thier e-mails may also be monitored (Electronicaly) at will, and information as to important Contracts pending may will be divulged. Illegally I stress.
However As from
19 th February 2001 David Blunkett gave all Councils of the UK permission to record at will any telephone evidence they required.
I may not have the correct date exactly, yet I know it was around that time period this law was passed.
They (The Councils) may also
monitor any transmissions (E-Mails and content, etc.) from
any premises and record.
This Law was passed to cover many scenarios including the fact that many Street CCTV are set to record your conversations when in Public Places hidden mics that can zoom into any relative areas the cameras are set to view.
Extensive information is available on this very subject via
TaskNews .
You may find reference to this from TaskNews Hot+Topics
Copy paste link below into browser.
http://uk.geocities.
com/tasknews/
Posted by: Carl Barron, Dorset on 11:18am Thu 10 Apr 08
[bold]To Ed The Echo Editor[/bold]
Could you [italic]please,please,[/italic] give the posters a larger Editing Box with a Preview if possible.
As I made a right [bold]Pigs Ear[/bold] of last posting struggling with this Mini Editing Box.
To Ed The Echo Editor
Could you
please,please, give the posters a larger Editing Box with a Preview if possible.
As I made a right
Pigs Ear of last posting struggling with this Mini Editing Box.
Posted by: Ed, Bournemouth on 11:33am Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Carl Barron[/bold] wrote:
[bold]To Ed The Echo Editor[/bold] Could you [italic]please,please,[/italic] give the posters a larger Editing Box with a Preview if possible. As I made a right [bold]Pigs Ear[/bold] of last posting struggling with this Mini Editing Box. [/quote] I would also like to provide all Echo readers with free choccie Muffins and Hot Chocolate.
But as I am not editor of The Echo I am afraid this just is not going to happen.
Carl Barron wrote:
To Ed The Echo Editor Could you please,please, give the posters a larger Editing Box with a Preview if possible. As I made a right Pigs Ear of last posting struggling with this Mini Editing Box.
I would also like to provide all Echo readers with free choccie Muffins and Hot Chocolate.
But as I am not editor of The Echo I am afraid this just is not going to happen.
Posted by: PokesdownMark, Pokesdown on 11:48am Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote]But Poole Council is a Conservative run council[/quote]
2 things wrong with this arguement... 1 it suggests that the councillors control all operational aspects of the council which they don't, 2 it suggests that Poole council can ignore govt rules and laws, which they can't.
I've been very critical of the echo in the past. But this is a great story. Hopefully will encourage some freedom-of-info requests to see if Bmth council are doing this too!
But Poole Council is a Conservative run council
2 things wrong with this arguement... 1 it suggests that the councillors control all operational aspects of the council which they don't, 2 it suggests that Poole council can ignore govt rules and laws, which they can't.
I've been very critical of the echo in the past. But this is a great story. Hopefully will encourage some freedom-of-info requests to see if Bmth council are doing this too!
Posted by: blue-eyes, Ferndown on 12:28pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Like hundreds of others, I can't get my son in to the school of our choice where I feel he would have received a better education. To spy on people who are wanting the best for their children is a huge waste of time/money. Why don't they spy on vandals? Graffiti artists? Neighbours from hell? Why aren't they watching the drug dealers, following the school bullies and the happy slappers? Why is it always the soft touch, the easy target? It make them no more than bullies themselves!!
Like hundreds of others, I can't get my son in to the school of our choice where I feel he would have received a better education. To spy on people who are wanting the best for their children is a huge waste of time/money. Why don't they spy on vandals? Graffiti artists? Neighbours from hell? Why aren't they watching the drug dealers, following the school bullies and the happy slappers? Why is it always the soft touch, the easy target? It make them no more than bullies themselves!!
Posted by: Tim M, usa on 2:35pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote]ogasam[/quote] That's a Thai curry, right?
ogasam
That's a Thai curry, right?
Posted by: Lucy, Poole on 2:47pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]blue-eyes[/bold] wrote:
Like hundreds of others, I can't get my son in to the school of our choice where I feel he would have received a better education. To spy on people who are wanting the best for their children is a huge waste of time/money. Why don't they spy on vandals? Graffiti artists? Neighbours from hell? Why aren't they watching the drug dealers, following the school bullies and the happy slappers? Why is it always the soft touch, the easy target? It make them no more than bullies themselves!! [/quote] So how would you feel if you knew that someone had obtained a place at the school by using a false address, and you informed the council but the council could do nothing about it? My daughter didn't get into the school that I live in the catchment area for, and I have lived here 14 years. I'll tell you what if I found out that someone had given a false address I would want the council to do everything in there power to investigate. If you put down a false address your application is fraudulent.
From this article it would suggest that the family in question had one property in the catchment area that they had on the market and one out of the catchment area that they moved into right after the deadline date. I haven't moved, my daughetr can't go to her nearest catchment school because its full with catchment children and this family will travel from out of the catchment area to school everyday and for all I know it may even well be the same school. They dont seem all that innocent to me, they played the system. If they were living in the house in Westbourne and the property in the catchment area was on the market but stood empty they would have to have put there new address on their application form and their child may not have got the place. The council had a duty to check this application out, especially for parents like me.
What about the outcome s of the other 6 observations under RIPA? did they come to the same conclusion that the application was valid and that the parents were living at the address on the form? I can't comment on that because the reporting on this is so one sided.
Many of the comments on here seem to suggest that the Council was wrong to do this, but I certainly dont
blue-eyes wrote:
Like hundreds of others, I can't get my son in to the school of our choice where I feel he would have received a better education. To spy on people who are wanting the best for their children is a huge waste of time/money. Why don't they spy on vandals? Graffiti artists? Neighbours from hell? Why aren't they watching the drug dealers, following the school bullies and the happy slappers? Why is it always the soft touch, the easy target? It make them no more than bullies themselves!!
So how would you feel if you knew that someone had obtained a place at the school by using a false address, and you informed the council but the council could do nothing about it? My daughter didn't get into the school that I live in the catchment area for, and I have lived here 14 years. I'll tell you what if I found out that someone had given a false address I would want the council to do everything in there power to investigate. If you put down a false address your application is fraudulent.
From this article it would suggest that the family in question had one property in the catchment area that they had on the market and one out of the catchment area that they moved into right after the deadline date. I haven't moved, my daughetr can't go to her nearest catchment school because its full with catchment children and this family will travel from out of the catchment area to school everyday and for all I know it may even well be the same school. They dont seem all that innocent to me, they played the system. If they were living in the house in Westbourne and the property in the catchment area was on the market but stood empty they would have to have put there new address on their application form and their child may not have got the place. The council had a duty to check this application out, especially for parents like me.
What about the outcome s of the other 6 observations under RIPA? did they come to the same conclusion that the application was valid and that the parents were living at the address on the form? I can't comment on that because the reporting on this is so one sided.
Many of the comments on here seem to suggest that the Council was wrong to do this, but I certainly dont
Posted by: the owl, bere on 3:03pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Carl Barron[/bold] wrote:
[bold]To Ed The Echo Editor[/bold] Could you [italic]please,please,[/italic] give the posters a larger Editing Box with a Preview if possible. As I made a right [bold]Pigs Ear[/bold] of last posting struggling with this Mini Editing Box. [/quote] Cant do it it will waste too much ink got to think about carbon foot-prints you know, also CAPS waste ink,2cmsx2cms is ample.
Carl Barron wrote:
To Ed The Echo Editor Could you please,please, give the posters a larger Editing Box with a Preview if possible. As I made a right Pigs Ear of last posting struggling with this Mini Editing Box.
Cant do it it will waste too much ink got to think about carbon foot-prints you know, also CAPS waste ink,2cmsx2cms is ample.
Posted by: rryfs, poole on 3:53pm Thu 10 Apr 08
someone ought to ask David Cameron why the Tories spy on people at our expense - and ask Leverett how he can justify this enormous expense when he's always whinging about the amount of Govt Grant - and finally ask Woodcock if he's responsible and does he still live in Southbourne?
someone ought to ask David Cameron why the Tories spy on people at our expense - and ask Leverett how he can justify this enormous expense when he's always whinging about the amount of Govt Grant - and finally ask Woodcock if he's responsible and does he still live in Southbourne?
Posted by: Carl Barron, Dorset on 5:35pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Ed[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Carl Barron[/bold] wrote:
[bold]To Ed The Echo Editor[/bold] Could you [italic]please,please,[/italic] give the posters a larger Editing Box with a Preview if possible. As I made a right [bold]Pigs Ear[/bold] of last posting struggling with this Mini Editing Box. [/quote] I would also like to provide all Echo readers with free choccie Muffins and Hot Chocolate.
But as I am not editor of The Echo I am afraid this just is not going to happen.[/quote] You can keep your [bold]free choccie Muffins and Hot Chocolate[/bold] .[italic] Cos I'm on a Diet[/italic]
I'd sooner have a [bold]decent Edit Box[/bold] with a preview.
Ed wrote:
Carl Barron wrote:
To Ed The Echo Editor Could you please,please, give the posters a larger Editing Box with a Preview if possible. As I made a right Pigs Ear of last posting struggling with this Mini Editing Box.
I would also like to provide all Echo readers with free choccie Muffins and Hot Chocolate.
But as I am not editor of The Echo I am afraid this just is not going to happen.
You can keep your
free choccie Muffins and Hot Chocolate .
Cos I'm on a Diet
I'd sooner have a
decent Edit Box with a preview.
Posted by: RM, Poole, Dorset on 5:51pm Thu 10 Apr 08
To those readers who think this story is too unimportant for the Echo - at least one national paper also thought it was important enough to print. For one thing, it demonstrates project creep - i.e. the original purpose behind allowing Council surveillance was to prevent crime & terrorism - and this family have done exactly what?
Secondly, exactly how much has all this surveillance cost? This is OUR money being spent. Apparently, very wastefully as, according to the article 'However it was carried out after the council's admissions deadline, so, under the council's own rules, appears to be irrelevant.' Which education officer at Borough of Poole signed this surveillance off & will he/she be off to the Jobcentre? Lets have some accountability here. For anyone who disagrees with the Council's action I would suggest first of all contacting your ward councillor(s) & making them aware of how you view the incident. Then go onto the Council website & do the same, enquiries@boroughofp
oole.com will be forwarded on to the correct team.
To those readers who think this story is too unimportant for the Echo - at least one national paper also thought it was important enough to print. For one thing, it demonstrates project creep - i.e. the original purpose behind allowing Council surveillance was to prevent crime & terrorism - and this family have done exactly what?
Secondly, exactly how much has all this surveillance cost? This is OUR money being spent. Apparently, very wastefully as, according to the article 'However it was carried out after the council's admissions deadline, so, under the council's own rules, appears to be irrelevant.' Which education officer at Borough of Poole signed this surveillance off & will he/she be off to the Jobcentre? Lets have some accountability here. For anyone who disagrees with the Council's action I would suggest first of all contacting your ward councillor(s) & making them aware of how you view the incident. Then go onto the Council website & do the same, enquiries@boroughofp
oole.com will be forwarded on to the correct team.
Posted by: PETE WOODLEY on 5:53pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Lucy[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]blue-eyes[/bold] wrote:
Like hundreds of others, I can't get my son in to the school of our choice where I feel he would have received a better education. To spy on people who are wanting the best for their children is a huge waste of time/money. Why don't they spy on vandals? Graffiti artists? Neighbours from hell? Why aren't they watching the drug dealers, following the school bullies and the happy slappers? Why is it always the soft touch, the easy target? It make them no more than bullies themselves!! [/quote] So how would you feel if you knew that someone had obtained a place at the school by using a false address, and you informed the council but the council could do nothing about it? My daughter didn't get into the school that I live in the catchment area for, and I have lived here 14 years. I'll tell you what if I found out that someone had given a false address I would want the council to do everything in there power to investigate. If you put down a false address your application is fraudulent.
From this article it would suggest that the family in question had one property in the catchment area that they had on the market and one out of the catchment area that they moved into right after the deadline date. I haven't moved, my daughetr can't go to her nearest catchment school because its full with catchment children and this family will travel from out of the catchment area to school everyday and for all I know it may even well be the same school. They dont seem all that innocent to me, they played the system. If they were living in the house in Westbourne and the property in the catchment area was on the market but stood empty they would have to have put there new address on their application form and their child may not have got the place. The council had a duty to check this application out, especially for parents like me.
What about the outcome s of the other 6 observations under RIPA? did they come to the same conclusion that the application was valid and that the parents were living at the address on the form? I can't comment on that because the reporting on this is so one sided.
Many of the comments on here seem to suggest that the Council was wrong to do this, but I certainly dont[/quote] You read it the same as me,it was a case of getting around the system,and now looking for sympathy,and one sided reporting.
Lucy wrote:
blue-eyes wrote:
Like hundreds of others, I can't get my son in to the school of our choice where I feel he would have received a better education. To spy on people who are wanting the best for their children is a huge waste of time/money. Why don't they spy on vandals? Graffiti artists? Neighbours from hell? Why aren't they watching the drug dealers, following the school bullies and the happy slappers? Why is it always the soft touch, the easy target? It make them no more than bullies themselves!!
So how would you feel if you knew that someone had obtained a place at the school by using a false address, and you informed the council but the council could do nothing about it? My daughter didn't get into the school that I live in the catchment area for, and I have lived here 14 years. I'll tell you what if I found out that someone had given a false address I would want the council to do everything in there power to investigate. If you put down a false address your application is fraudulent.
From this article it would suggest that the family in question had one property in the catchment area that they had on the market and one out of the catchment area that they moved into right after the deadline date. I haven't moved, my daughetr can't go to her nearest catchment school because its full with catchment children and this family will travel from out of the catchment area to school everyday and for all I know it may even well be the same school. They dont seem all that innocent to me, they played the system. If they were living in the house in Westbourne and the property in the catchment area was on the market but stood empty they would have to have put there new address on their application form and their child may not have got the place. The council had a duty to check this application out, especially for parents like me.
What about the outcome s of the other 6 observations under RIPA? did they come to the same conclusion that the application was valid and that the parents were living at the address on the form? I can't comment on that because the reporting on this is so one sided.
Many of the comments on here seem to suggest that the Council was wrong to do this, but I certainly dont
You read it the same as me,it was a case of getting around the system,and now looking for sympathy,and one sided reporting.
Posted by: PETE WOODLEY on 5:53pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Lucy[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]blue-eyes[/bold] wrote:
Like hundreds of others, I can't get my son in to the school of our choice where I feel he would have received a better education. To spy on people who are wanting the best for their children is a huge waste of time/money. Why don't they spy on vandals? Graffiti artists? Neighbours from hell? Why aren't they watching the drug dealers, following the school bullies and the happy slappers? Why is it always the soft touch, the easy target? It make them no more than bullies themselves!! [/quote] So how would you feel if you knew that someone had obtained a place at the school by using a false address, and you informed the council but the council could do nothing about it? My daughter didn't get into the school that I live in the catchment area for, and I have lived here 14 years. I'll tell you what if I found out that someone had given a false address I would want the council to do everything in there power to investigate. If you put down a false address your application is fraudulent.
From this article it would suggest that the family in question had one property in the catchment area that they had on the market and one out of the catchment area that they moved into right after the deadline date. I haven't moved, my daughetr can't go to her nearest catchment school because its full with catchment children and this family will travel from out of the catchment area to school everyday and for all I know it may even well be the same school. They dont seem all that innocent to me, they played the system. If they were living in the house in Westbourne and the property in the catchment area was on the market but stood empty they would have to have put there new address on their application form and their child may not have got the place. The council had a duty to check this application out, especially for parents like me.
What about the outcome s of the other 6 observations under RIPA? did they come to the same conclusion that the application was valid and that the parents were living at the address on the form? I can't comment on that because the reporting on this is so one sided.
Many of the comments on here seem to suggest that the Council was wrong to do this, but I certainly dont[/quote] You read it the same as me,it was a case of getting around the system,and now looking for sympathy,and one sided reporting.
Lucy wrote:
blue-eyes wrote:
Like hundreds of others, I can't get my son in to the school of our choice where I feel he would have received a better education. To spy on people who are wanting the best for their children is a huge waste of time/money. Why don't they spy on vandals? Graffiti artists? Neighbours from hell? Why aren't they watching the drug dealers, following the school bullies and the happy slappers? Why is it always the soft touch, the easy target? It make them no more than bullies themselves!!
So how would you feel if you knew that someone had obtained a place at the school by using a false address, and you informed the council but the council could do nothing about it? My daughter didn't get into the school that I live in the catchment area for, and I have lived here 14 years. I'll tell you what if I found out that someone had given a false address I would want the council to do everything in there power to investigate. If you put down a false address your application is fraudulent.
From this article it would suggest that the family in question had one property in the catchment area that they had on the market and one out of the catchment area that they moved into right after the deadline date. I haven't moved, my daughetr can't go to her nearest catchment school because its full with catchment children and this family will travel from out of the catchment area to school everyday and for all I know it may even well be the same school. They dont seem all that innocent to me, they played the system. If they were living in the house in Westbourne and the property in the catchment area was on the market but stood empty they would have to have put there new address on their application form and their child may not have got the place. The council had a duty to check this application out, especially for parents like me.
What about the outcome s of the other 6 observations under RIPA? did they come to the same conclusion that the application was valid and that the parents were living at the address on the form? I can't comment on that because the reporting on this is so one sided.
Many of the comments on here seem to suggest that the Council was wrong to do this, but I certainly dont
You read it the same as me,it was a case of getting around the system,and now looking for sympathy,and one sided reporting.
Posted by: HAL101, Bournemouth on 7:31pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Tim M[/bold] wrote:
[quote]ogasam[/quote] That's a Thai curry, right?[/quote] It is certainly a hot dish, but it is to be found world wide !
[italic][bold]:)[/bold][/italic]
Tim M wrote:
ogasam
That's a Thai curry, right?
It is certainly a hot dish, but it is to be found world wide !
:) Posted by: John, Poole on 7:55pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]rryfs[/bold] wrote:
someone ought to ask David Cameron why the Tories spy on people at our expense - and ask Leverett how he can justify this enormous expense when he's always whinging about the amount of Govt Grant - and finally ask Woodcock if he's responsible and does he still live in Southbourne?[/quote] Don't ask... just put the surveillance cameras on them. The Daily Mirror has already exposed what a criminal Dave Camoron is on his bicycle. Was there Terrorist intent when he went the wrong way up a one way street in the Nation's capital?!
rryfs wrote:
someone ought to ask David Cameron why the Tories spy on people at our expense - and ask Leverett how he can justify this enormous expense when he's always whinging about the amount of Govt Grant - and finally ask Woodcock if he's responsible and does he still live in Southbourne?
Don't ask... just put the surveillance cameras on them. The Daily Mirror has already exposed what a criminal Dave Camoron is on his bicycle. Was there Terrorist intent when he went the wrong way up a one way street in the Nation's capital?!
Posted by: mike, poole on 8:49pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Surveillance is costly and intrusive. It should only be used in extreme circumstances and where there is the expectation of a major crime being committed, whether terrorism or areas such as fraud. Selectivity of a child's catchment area for a school hardly fits in any of the categories above. If surveillance is to be carried out on parents and catchment areas, there's going to be an almighty amount of 'big brother' watching as choosing a school place affects so many new admissions for young children. Poole Council is deteriorating into farce.
Surveillance is costly and intrusive. It should only be used in extreme circumstances and where there is the expectation of a major crime being committed, whether terrorism or areas such as fraud. Selectivity of a child's catchment area for a school hardly fits in any of the categories above. If surveillance is to be carried out on parents and catchment areas, there's going to be an almighty amount of 'big brother' watching as choosing a school place affects so many new admissions for young children. Poole Council is deteriorating into farce.
Posted by: PokesdownMark, Pokesdown on 9:56pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Further details of the case as reported by the mail on sunday website are even more alarming. This family had actually consulted the council on admissions policy and followed the advice given. They were applying for a sibling to attend the particular school. So should have been given a place anyway.
This whole saga appalls me and there must be an investigation!
Further details of the case as reported by the mail on sunday website are even more alarming. This family had actually consulted the council on admissions policy and followed the advice given. They were applying for a sibling to attend the particular school. So should have been given a place anyway.
This whole saga appalls me and there must be an investigation!
Posted by: mike, poole on 10:14pm Thu 10 Apr 08
PokesdownMark wrote 'The whole saga appals me.' Actually, Poole Council is appalling and slipping into farce. First there was the 'debacle' of the Solar Pyramid, at which the Council cabinet was forced to make a 'U turn'. This was rapidly followed by cuts in the Library provision -of which there was NO public consultation with cuts to the Central Library accommodation and now the surveillance mess. What is extremely worrying is that all the above issues have occurred during the past few months...
What next, Poole Monty Python Council?
PokesdownMark wrote 'The whole saga appals me.' Actually, Poole Council is appalling and slipping into farce. First there was the 'debacle' of the Solar Pyramid, at which the Council cabinet was forced to make a 'U turn'. This was rapidly followed by cuts in the Library provision -of which there was NO public consultation with cuts to the Central Library accommodation and now the surveillance mess. What is extremely worrying is that all the above issues have occurred during the past few months...
What next, Poole Monty Python Council?
Posted by: Poole man in France, Paris on 10:17pm Thu 10 Apr 08
It's good to know council tax in Poole will not have to be increased in the near future. The way money is being thrown down the drain it's obvious that Poole Council have far more funds available to them than they need!
It's good to know council tax in Poole will not have to be increased in the near future. The way money is being thrown down the drain it's obvious that Poole Council have far more funds available to them than they need!
Posted by: tommy, Poole on 11:22pm Thu 10 Apr 08
We're with "blueeyes" on this. 3 Weeks ago our daughter got turned down for our nearest school. They've suggested we send her to a variety of less "in demand" schools (only 2 people applied for one of them) which are up to 9 miles away. This was after we told them that my wife had poor vision so the shorter distance to walk the better. I can see why "Lucy" would be annoyed with people who lied their way into a school and got in instead of her childred, but I recon that if decent law abiding citizens are being *forced* to pretend they live in their friends houses and offices and stuff then that means that the policies are wrong in the first place. I know several people who've done this and respect what they have done for their kids. I dont't have a spare house I can pretend that I live in but right now we're filling out our appeal form. We've been trying to sell our house for over a year to be closer to a school. When we do sell it the government will get a nice chunk of stamp duty. I don't suppose we are the only family in the UK or even in Poole trying to do this. We pay our tax and our council tax. It would be nice to know that with all this tax to play with, and promises of eductation , they actually built more schools, rather than spending the money on policing us to ensure we are not commiting "crimes" against their insane policies!
We're with "blueeyes" on this. 3 Weeks ago our daughter got turned down for our nearest school. They've suggested we send her to a variety of less "in demand" schools (only 2 people applied for one of them) which are up to 9 miles away. This was after we told them that my wife had poor vision so the shorter distance to walk the better. I can see why "Lucy" would be annoyed with people who lied their way into a school and got in instead of her childred, but I recon that if decent law abiding citizens are being *forced* to pretend they live in their friends houses and offices and stuff then that means that the policies are wrong in the first place. I know several people who've done this and respect what they have done for their kids. I dont't have a spare house I can pretend that I live in but right now we're filling out our appeal form. We've been trying to sell our house for over a year to be closer to a school. When we do sell it the government will get a nice chunk of stamp duty. I don't suppose we are the only family in the UK or even in Poole trying to do this. We pay our tax and our council tax. It would be nice to know that with all this tax to play with, and promises of eductation , they actually built more schools, rather than spending the money on policing us to ensure we are not commiting "crimes" against their insane policies!
Posted by: Lucy, Poole on 7:08am Fri 11 Apr 08
[quote][bold]tommy[/bold] wrote:
We're with "blueeyes" on this. 3 Weeks ago our daughter got turned down for our nearest school. They've suggested we send her to a variety of less "in demand" schools (only 2 people applied for one of them) which are up to 9 miles away. This was after we told them that my wife had poor vision so the shorter distance to walk the better. I can see why "Lucy" would be annoyed with people who lied their way into a school and got in instead of her childred, but I recon that if decent law abiding citizens are being *forced* to pretend they live in their friends houses and offices and stuff then that means that the policies are wrong in the first place. I know several people who've done this and respect what they have done for their kids. I dont't have a spare house I can pretend that I live in but right now we're filling out our appeal form. We've been trying to sell our house for over a year to be closer to a school. When we do sell it the government will get a nice chunk of stamp duty. I don't suppose we are the only family in the UK or even in Poole trying to do this. We pay our tax and our council tax. It would be nice to know that with all this tax to play with, and promises of eductation , they actually built more schools, rather than spending the money on policing us to ensure we are not commiting "crimes" against their insane policies![/quote] I suppose ideally there would be enough spaces in a catchment school to take every child who applied, but there isn't and the chances of a new school being built are between nil and none so that really isn't something I can hope for to happen before September. You say you admire the patents you know who have submitted false applications. But I find it hard to believe you would feel the same if one of those parents children getting a place and your child not. Just because you dont agree with the policy or the laws surrounding it isn't a defence for making a fradulent application which in effect steals a place for a child who should have got it.
I think we may need to agree to disagree with this one, good luck with your appeal
tommy wrote:
We're with "blueeyes" on this. 3 Weeks ago our daughter got turned down for our nearest school. They've suggested we send her to a variety of less "in demand" schools (only 2 people applied for one of them) which are up to 9 miles away. This was after we told them that my wife had poor vision so the shorter distance to walk the better. I can see why "Lucy" would be annoyed with people who lied their way into a school and got in instead of her childred, but I recon that if decent law abiding citizens are being *forced* to pretend they live in their friends houses and offices and stuff then that means that the policies are wrong in the first place. I know several people who've done this and respect what they have done for their kids. I dont't have a spare house I can pretend that I live in but right now we're filling out our appeal form. We've been trying to sell our house for over a year to be closer to a school. When we do sell it the government will get a nice chunk of stamp duty. I don't suppose we are the only family in the UK or even in Poole trying to do this. We pay our tax and our council tax. It would be nice to know that with all this tax to play with, and promises of eductation , they actually built more schools, rather than spending the money on policing us to ensure we are not commiting "crimes" against their insane policies!
I suppose ideally there would be enough spaces in a catchment school to take every child who applied, but there isn't and the chances of a new school being built are between nil and none so that really isn't something I can hope for to happen before September. You say you admire the patents you know who have submitted false applications. But I find it hard to believe you would feel the same if one of those parents children getting a place and your child not. Just because you dont agree with the policy or the laws surrounding it isn't a defence for making a fradulent application which in effect steals a place for a child who should have got it.
I think we may need to agree to disagree with this one, good luck with your appeal
Posted by: Beaker, Bournemouth on 7:39am Fri 11 Apr 08
I would not be happy if it was me they were looking at. Come on council. Spend our money properly!
I would not be happy if it was me they were looking at. Come on council. Spend our money properly!
Posted by: Puzzled, Poole on 8:11am Fri 11 Apr 08
Whilst I do not condone the actions of the Council is utilising their powers to snoop on people for a relatively minor situation - the family concerned appear to have acted slightly underhand by making sure their daughter was registered at the school of their choice before they then moved out of the catchment area - had they moved before she would almost certainly NOT have gained the place at the school in question.
I suspect the Council had got wind of their imminent house move and thus engaged in snooping to find out the truth of the matter.
There are two sides to every story and this one appears to have been blown out of proportion in favour of the family.
I wonder how many other people living in the school catchment area did NOT get a place for their child at this school, although they still live within he area?
Hmmm.
Whilst I do not condone the actions of the Council is utilising their powers to snoop on people for a relatively minor situation - the family concerned appear to have acted slightly underhand by making sure their daughter was registered at the school of their choice before they then moved out of the catchment area - had they moved before she would almost certainly NOT have gained the place at the school in question.
I suspect the Council had got wind of their imminent house move and thus engaged in snooping to find out the truth of the matter.
There are two sides to every story and this one appears to have been blown out of proportion in favour of the family.
I wonder how many other people living in the school catchment area did NOT get a place for their child at this school, although they still live within he area?
Hmmm.
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