Calls to ban the burka by Dorset MP Richard Drax branded "absurd" (From Bournemouth Echo)
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Calls to ban the burka by Dorset MP Richard Drax branded "absurd"
9:30am Saturday 31st July 2010 in
AN ORGANISATION promoting racial harmony in Dorset has branded an MP’s calls to ban the burka “absurd”.
As reported in the Daily Echo, South Dorset MP Richard Drax spoke out against the veil, worn by some Muslim women, writing in sister newspaper the Dorset Echo.
The Conservative MP wrote: “Asking a woman to uncover her face is not shaming her, especially when she has chosen to live in a western democracy like ours. By following our customs, integration is far more likely, as is social cohesion.
“My view is that a healthy democracy relies upon a spirit of openness. To interact freely and without fear, we must all show our faces and be identifiable.”
Now, the Bournemouth-based Dorset Race Equality Council has said it is “dismayed and disappointed” by the remarks.
Chief officer Adnan Chaudry said: ‘This is such a non-issue in South Dorset. At a time when his constituents are facing job losses, cuts in public services and financial uncertainty, Mr Drax recommends this absurd suggestion, as opposed to addressing these other serious problems.
“To raise this issue only increases prejudice and tensions in our communities.
“We recently passed the two-year mark towards the Olympics and Dorset will be welcoming a large number of international visitors. It is particularly important that we are seen to be tolerant of people of all races, creeds and appearances.”
Mr Drax said he stood by his views and added: “Millions of people died in two great world wars to give people like me and others in our country the freedom of speech and I should be free to speak my mind.
“I’ve expressed an opinion that is, all right, not a huge issue in South Dorset as there’s not a huge number of Muslims in South Dorset, but there’s an increasing number living in the UK and I form part of a government that is governing the country.
“My job is also to look nationally and internationally at issues that affect us all.”
Comments(70)
bigger boy
says...
10:19am Sat 31 Jul 10
roysses
says...
10:29am Sat 31 Jul 10
I dont care of anyone wanders the streets totally covered, but in banks, at airports etc, faces should be seen
bourne free
says...
10:54am Sat 31 Jul 10
Syd Poumen
says...
11:09am Sat 31 Jul 10
bourne free wrote:There will be a burk in one form or another in control of all the yachts for starters!
what input does a burka have in the olympics , any ideas ? Would it be classed as cheating in the sailing ?
West Howe Sean
says...
11:12am Sat 31 Jul 10
madfromdorset
says...
11:31am Sat 31 Jul 10
#
West Howe Sean. I assume you go abroad for holidays etc. There are many countries, even within Europe where there are dress codes, like women having to wear head scarves, and cover their shoulders to enter a church. Men cannot wear T Shirts in certain places. Try visiting such places as Tunisia, Morocco, outside of the tourist area, or away from you all inclusve hotel. You need to fully dressed. Egypt is a perfect example.
mta
says...
11:31am Sat 31 Jul 10
1. How about swimming as they wear hats in those events .
2. Judo they wear suits in that.
3. Just checking youtube for some more.
rainbowkisses
says...
11:32am Sat 31 Jul 10
bourne free
says...
11:43am Sat 31 Jul 10
Lets welcome them for the olympics
Get them involved in the olympics .
Come on think positive for them.
Give them there freedom.
Please more events ?
psal
says...
11:48am Sat 31 Jul 10
rainbowkisses wrote:WELL SAID
Just as you are entitled to call Mr Draxs comments "absured", Chaudry, we are entitled to say that you have your head up where the sun don't shine. You are forever waffling on about us accepting the ways of others, but not once have I seen you make a comment about them accepting our ways. You are so out of touch with the feelings of most people in Dorset, and the country as a whole. As for you being “dismayed and disappointed” with Mr Draxs remarks, I think he is spot on. It's people like you that cause "prejudice and tensions in our communities" with your constant attempts to erode the British way of life, forcing us to change our ways to accommodate the ways of people who make no attempt to integrate.
MonsterRavingCommonsenseParty
says...
11:57am Sat 31 Jul 10
Can we hold hands in a restaurant - NO
As foreigners we abide by the strict morality laws of the country's we are visiting. They should do the same, we ban hoodies, why not these?
We are not banning a religion, we are banning a method of covering up the face which could be used for ulterior motives.
fartycat
says...
12:00pm Sat 31 Jul 10
Drax lives in Charborough House in a huge walled off 7,000 acre estate, paid for by the slave trade. He has about as much relevance to my life as the lone pea at the bottom of my freezer that fell out of its bag.
.
Anyhow's, there was me thinking the Conservatives were the party of liberty and anti the nanny state. At least we never had Labour going round telling us what we could and couldn't wear.
bourne free
says...
12:15pm Sat 31 Jul 10
Chill out and get them there freedom and if you see one tell them about sport ?
mta
says...
12:56pm Sat 31 Jul 10
Glashen
says...
12:59pm Sat 31 Jul 10
-
The views on here prove the truth of this statement sadly, we can't impose freedom on people only offer it.
I do feel strongly that to impose a ban on certain types of dress would be against our British values of tolerance.
To use the argument that Muslim states are less tolerant than us, as a reason for this law is nonsensical. The security issue would be best dealt with by the organizations concerned not a coverall ban (sorry couldn't resist that one). It is a banks or airports responsibility to impose security on their premises a new law would just confuse the issue.
-
Mr Drax said he stood by his views and added: “Millions of people died in two great world wars to give people like me and others in our country the freedom of speech and I should be free to speak my mind. "
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Really does that not extend to freedom to worship and dress as you please. (I know some will dispute that it is a religious requirement, but there are many ways to follow a religion.)
-
Frankly coming from a highly privileged white man you couldn't have made that quote up.
Glashen
says...
12:59pm Sat 31 Jul 10
-
The views on here prove the truth of this statement sadly, we can't impose freedom on people only offer it.
I do feel strongly that to impose a ban on certain types of dress would be against our British values of tolerance.
To use the argument that Muslim states are less tolerant than us, as a reason for this law is nonsensical. The security issue would be best dealt with by the organizations concerned not a coverall ban (sorry couldn't resist that one). It is a banks or airports responsibility to impose security on their premises a new law would just confuse the issue.
-
Mr Drax said he stood by his views and added: “Millions of people died in two great world wars to give people like me and others in our country the freedom of speech and I should be free to speak my mind. "
-
Really does that not extend to freedom to worship and dress as you please. (I know some will dispute that it is a religious requirement, but there are many ways to follow a religion.)
-
Frankly coming from a highly privileged white man you couldn't have made that quote up.
Syd Poumen
says...
1:05pm Sat 31 Jul 10
bourne free wrote:bournefree
Come on fartycat forget the goverment . Chill out and get them there freedom and if you see one tell them about sport ?
How can fartycat forget the government when Richard Grosvenor Plunkett-Ernle-Erle Drax is telling us he is part of the government, but under which guise I am not sure.
Anyway, I remain tolerant of all races, whether they be in the Channel or in East London!
bourne free
says...
1:36pm Sat 31 Jul 10
pamandmike
says...
2:31pm Sat 31 Jul 10
golden mouldie
says...
2:50pm Sat 31 Jul 10
rainbowkisses wrote:Here Here !!!!!!!!
Just as you are entitled to call Mr Draxs comments "absured", Chaudry, we are entitled to say that you have your head up where the sun don't shine. You are forever waffling on about us accepting the ways of others, but not once have I seen you make a comment about them accepting our ways. You are so out of touch with the feelings of most people in Dorset, and the country as a whole. As for you being “dismayed and disappointed” with Mr Draxs remarks, I think he is spot on. It's people like you that cause "prejudice and tensions in our communities" with your constant attempts to erode the British way of life, forcing us to change our ways to accommodate the ways of people who make no attempt to integrate.
Dorset Crab
says...
2:55pm Sat 31 Jul 10
mta
says...
3:03pm Sat 31 Jul 10
McVICAR
says...
3:10pm Sat 31 Jul 10
Dorset Crab wrote:I know quite a few women that should wear a burka.
Well done Rainbowkisses, my sentiments precisely! Personally I don't care what kind of background Mr Drax has, to me that has nothing to do with the issue in hand! So let's leave class and politics out of this. When we go abroad, I am happy to abide by their rules, whether we go to Egypt, Malaysia, Asia or Europe - I hope I never do anything to offend. I always cover up if going into a religious building and honour the rules of the country we are visiting....so why shouldn't the same happen here? It's absolutely nothing to do with racism Mr Chaudry, it's about a country's identity and we are fast, losing ours! When we were up at Heathrow earlier this year, a lady (we think) was in the queue in full Burkha costume, whilst her husband was in Western style clothing (that makes me riled for a start), same as when we went to Langkawi and the Muslim men strutted around in swim trunks and the woman still had to wear the full burkha, even when they went in the sea - how crazy and sexist is that? Ok some of you will say they love to dress like that, but I'm sure not all Muslim women do. Anyway the point I was getting at, at Heathrow is, how do we know it was a woman and not a terrorist? Not sure what happened when she got to security as we went in other direction, but are they asked to remove their headware? When you apply for a passport, we have strict rules about what you have to do when you pose for the photo, or else it is rejected, so how does customs check their photos? I don't have a problem with headscarves as many people wear different types of head-dress - as long as it doesn't obscure their face, but definitely do have a problem with woman hiding beneath a burkha in OUR country!
Glashen
says...
3:14pm Sat 31 Jul 10
-
When a Muslim woman who prefers to have her face covered goes through Immigration she can request that a female immigration officer deal with her and she will show here face in a private room or curtained off area, the same goes if she needs to be searched at security.
-
I don't think it is right to use the security argument to outlaw something we find distasteful unless it is merited on the ground of security and I certainly don't think we should use the attitudes of the most repressive regimes in the world to justify enacting our own prejudices.
-
I should say I don't personally like the Burkha but then there are plenty of dress styles I don't like, I just don't have the arrogance to tell anyone how to dress.
BOURNE RED
says...
3:23pm Sat 31 Jul 10
MonsterRavingCommonswell said but there are to many tree hugging nieve people in this country. People say we should be proud that so many people want to come to our country the reason why so many people want to come here is because its easy to lie your way to get in then given a house with money for doing nothing, and if anyone argue's the fact then they are a racist, well our govenment say keep coming in our road get busier our prisons get flooded and our green spaces become history but as long as were seen to be 'the country everyone wants to come to' we will be walked over and the british way will be history.
enseParty wrote:
Can I go to a muslim country and wear shorts and vest in the supermarket-No, Can my wife wear a bikini in the garden of a rented holiday home in Dubai - NO. Can we hold hands in a restaurant - NO As foreigners we abide by the strict morality laws of the country's we are visiting. They should do the same, we ban hoodies, why not these? We are not banning a religion, we are banning a method of covering up the face which could be used for ulterior motives.
baron hardup
says...
4:05pm Sat 31 Jul 10
McVICAR wrote:shouldn"t talk about your wife and mother-in -law like that
Dorset Crab wrote: Well done Rainbowkisses, my sentiments precisely! Personally I don't care what kind of background Mr Drax has, to me that has nothing to do with the issue in hand! So let's leave class and politics out of this. When we go abroad, I am happy to abide by their rules, whether we go to Egypt, Malaysia, Asia or Europe - I hope I never do anything to offend. I always cover up if going into a religious building and honour the rules of the country we are visiting....so why shouldn't the same happen here? It's absolutely nothing to do with racism Mr Chaudry, it's about a country's identity and we are fast, losing ours! When we were up at Heathrow earlier this year, a lady (we think) was in the queue in full Burkha costume, whilst her husband was in Western style clothing (that makes me riled for a start), same as when we went to Langkawi and the Muslim men strutted around in swim trunks and the woman still had to wear the full burkha, even when they went in the sea - how crazy and sexist is that? Ok some of you will say they love to dress like that, but I'm sure not all Muslim women do. Anyway the point I was getting at, at Heathrow is, how do we know it was a woman and not a terrorist? Not sure what happened when she got to security as we went in other direction, but are they asked to remove their headware? When you apply for a passport, we have strict rules about what you have to do when you pose for the photo, or else it is rejected, so how does customs check their photos? I don't have a problem with headscarves as many people wear different types of head-dress - as long as it doesn't obscure their face, but definitely do have a problem with woman hiding beneath a burkha in OUR country!I know quite a few women that should wear a burka.
caz-caz
says...
5:03pm Sat 31 Jul 10
Syd Poumen
says...
5:25pm Sat 31 Jul 10
caz-caz wrote:Well, let's hope you will stilll be able to celebrate the English World Cup success by drinking to oblivion in the Caz-Caz Bah,Humbug!
it wont be long before we have a muslim prime minister in this country - then look out .we wont be english for too much longer make the most of it
Localsfirst
says...
6:21pm Sat 31 Jul 10
PokesdownMark
says...
6:30pm Sat 31 Jul 10
X Old Bill
says...
6:49pm Sat 31 Jul 10
Islam is NOT a race. It is a religion, faith or creed.
A person of any race can be a Muslim.
Religion is, or should be, a matter of choice, Race is what one is born into.
.
The Burqa is not Islamic - Its use pre-dates Islam.
Face covering is not exclusively Islamic - Other cultures have used it throughout history, such as the Lady's face veil, even seen in many early Hollywood movies.
Head covering is not exclusively Islamic - Other religions and cultures use similar garments.
.
To those who say, when they see Muslim person in a burqa: How do you know that it is a woman? I would say: How do you know that it is a Muslim?
hawkwoman
says...
6:53pm Sat 31 Jul 10
I could not go into a shop school bank or anywhere else wearing a crash helmet or a balaclava so why should they be unidentifiable?
Remember the saying when in Spain... well why not when in England?
I am not against these people but they should do as we do when in this country.
I am sick and tired of the way we are treated in this "Our England."
If anybody speaks out they get arrested. I worked with so many old people who said they fought for this country and say look what it has come to?
So sad.
mta
says...
9:42pm Sat 31 Jul 10
1. How about swimming as they wear hats in those events .
2. Judo they wear suits in that.
3. Just checking youtube for some more.
Great spot bournefree Olympic ideas ? 1. How about swimming as they wear hats in those events . 2. Judo they wear suits in that. 3. Just checking youtube for some more.
dorset lady
says...
10:44pm Sat 31 Jul 10
Fire_fly
says...
11:04pm Sat 31 Jul 10
Ask any Muslim.
Imagine what a weird world it would be if everyone walked around in them. I say go and live somewhere else. Burka Off.
butlincat
says...
11:20pm Sat 31 Jul 10
madfromdorset
says...
11:48pm Sat 31 Jul 10
od for thought.
BIGTONE
says...
12:20am Sun 1 Aug 10
Mike Pickering
says...
12:51am Sun 1 Aug 10
This is clearly fatuous, archaic claptrap of the sort that is not tolerated in other arenas, and would indeed not be tolerated if proposed anew, and would be deemed the most UnBritish thing were it to be so.
We do not permit the middle-age peculiarities of the religion of Peace to encroach upon our other laws: a woman's testimony is not worth half a man's, and we do not permit the punishment of rape to be applied if a woman's brother is a wrongdoer.
Tolerance does not mean permitting anyone to behave as they chose. It means permitting people to behave in ways that do not infringe upon the liberties of others, be they strangers, wives or sisters.
We prescribe tolerance, and indeed venerate it as something (albeit only relatively recently in our history), as "British", citing amongst other things our opposition to the foul-minded repressiveness of the Nazis, BUT we demand that the price of such a concession is the practice of same.
Insistence by some men that some women cover their faces - whatever justification they muster - is not acceptable. We demand solidarity in upholding our collective tolerance from these women, and offer them the assurances of an effective recourse should their men-folk be intolerant in return.
Equity under the law, and Justice must be seen to be done - this is not an issue of public anonymity and personal freedom to dress how one chooses, it is the lifting of a BAN of personal freedom.
glennzilla
says...
4:46am Sun 1 Aug 10
X Old Bill, you say that the Burka pre-dates Islam, well that does not make it ok. I believe the famous athiest Pat Condell said it best when he said " If God intended women to cover their faces, then women would have been born with a flap of skin." You also state that race is what you are born into and that religion is, or should be, practised by choice. Being born into a muslim family choice is removed and indoctrination begins early. I have seen an interview with a three year old Afghani girl where she is telling the interviewer that by Allah's will it is her duty as a Muslim to kill all infedels!!
For those who feel that we should tolerate this misogynistic oppression of women I advise you to look at the front cover of the current Time Magazine. It features the face of a young woman who has a ragged hole where her nose should be. The Taliban ruthlessly punished her by cutting off her ears and nose! Her crime? Attempting to flee her abusive in-laws!
Before I am accused of being anti-Muslim, I am equally as contemptous of most organised religions and I belive that Jonathon Swift was spot on when he said "There is enough religion to make man hate each other but not enough to make them love each other."
Gordon Clifton
says...
6:21am Sun 1 Aug 10
ian t
says...
6:30am Sun 1 Aug 10
EGHH
says...
7:35am Sun 1 Aug 10
Dorset Crab
says...
8:15am Sun 1 Aug 10
H2oHara
says...
9:29am Sun 1 Aug 10
McVICAR
says...
11:23am Sun 1 Aug 10
H2oHara wrote:I may be wrong but I cannot recall ever observing a nun with her face fully covered, so really thats a stupid comparasion to make.
If our Nuns can tolerate the "habit". I'm sure the these burka wearers can do the same in this part of the world !
X Old Bill
says...
12:12pm Sun 1 Aug 10
Not just Islam for indoctrination - I was bought up as a Roman Catholic, Protestants were something to be despised. As I grew up I learnt to think for myself, and modern Christianity allowed me do do so - Islam does not give one that level of freedom.
geoffro
says...
12:55pm Sun 1 Aug 10
Capt. Ahab (ret.)
says...
6:06pm Sun 1 Aug 10
McVICAR wrote:Ahoy McVICAR’
H2oHara wrote:I may be wrong but I cannot recall ever observing a nun with her face fully covered, so really thats a stupid comparasion to make.
If our Nuns can tolerate the "habit". I'm sure the these burka wearers can do the same in this part of the world !
I am in right agreement with ye but then I am NOT a ‘historian’ as H2oHara!! Perhaps thou and me both inaccurate?
butlincat
says...
9:44pm Sun 1 Aug 10
s-pb2
says...
12:55am Mon 2 Aug 10
And Mr Drax's comments came in the same week when the fella who cycled from winton to sandbanks naked was taken to court. Wasnt he just expressing his beliefs too?
Mike Pickering
says...
12:59am Mon 2 Aug 10
This is what the compulsory wearing of a burka IS - a signifier that the wearer's human rights are managed by someone else. Unacceptable.
It is the rights of male muslims to take away the choice of a woman to show her face that we object to, NOT the woman's right to wear the burka.
In the words of Basil Fawlty "Please understand this before one of us dies..".
The burka is a sign that religious law has trumped the civil rights of individuals.
Norman Mead
says...
9:34am Mon 2 Aug 10
MonsterRavingCommons1. I don't see how you can use the covering-up rules in some (oppressive) countries as an argument. Those nations would argue (rightly or wrongly) that women not covering up offends their sense of decency. But we could hardly say that women covering up in the UK offends our sense of decency. Why should it?
enseParty wrote:
Can I go to a muslim country and wear shorts and vest in the supermarket-No, Can my wife wear a bikini in the garden of a rented holiday home in Dubai - NO.
Can we hold hands in a restaurant - NO
As foreigners we abide by the strict morality laws of the country's we are visiting. They should do the same, we ban hoodies, why not these?
We are not banning a religion, we are banning a method of covering up the face which could be used for ulterior motives.
2. 'We abide by the strict morality laws of the countries we are visiting'? Have you seen how many British people behave abroad?
3. Hoodies aren't banned outright (only in a few shopping centres), so that comparison is pointless.
Norman Mead
says...
9:36am Mon 2 Aug 10
Mike Pickering wrote:That's no reason for a ban on the garment itself, but more for ensuring that women aren't oppressed by men. In fact, a ban might even make these women's lives worse by forcing them to stay indoors.
"Telling a person what he or she can or can wear is daft and goes against a persons human rights. "
This is what the compulsory wearing of a burka IS - a signifier that the wearer's human rights are managed by someone else. Unacceptable.
It is the rights of male muslims to take away the choice of a woman to show her face that we object to, NOT the woman's right to wear the burka.
In the words of Basil Fawlty "Please understand this before one of us dies..".
The burka is a sign that religious law has trumped the civil rights of individuals.
Mike Pickering
says...
2:27pm Mon 2 Aug 10
Are we to wring our hands upon seeing burka'd women and say "Well at least he let her out, could be worse..".
No.
Your comment "..but more for ensuring that women aren't oppressed by men" makes no sense to me, sorry.
How are we to ensure women aren't oppressed by maintaining the rights of men to insist 'their' women cover their faces ?
We're all turned six-ways-ninepence over this, terrified of appearing intolerant or acting in a way that would offend someone who claims religious basis for that offence, as if their sky-god will smite us, or more realistically if his followers will.
Fear not - you can do the moral philosophy for this on the back of an envelope: practice your religion and maintain your cultural heritage day and night, with an intensity and fervour unbridled - but in doing so do not impinge upon the rights of any other to go about their business, as protected under the law. In this case, the right to have one's face uncovered, and not be marked as 'owned' or overseen, like a child or a slave. In our society and tradition, under our law - women are the equal of men and cannot be demarked, painted, flagged, wrapped, dressed or addressed otherwise.
mta
says...
6:48pm Mon 2 Aug 10
josie1990
says...
8:23pm Mon 2 Aug 10
Norman Mead
says...
8:55am Tue 3 Aug 10
Glashen
says...
9:38am Tue 3 Aug 10
Mike Pickering wrote:It is simple isn't it Mike, why don't we make a law saying that men can't oppress women, that they mustn't commit violence on them and they are entitled to equal treatment, Oh yes we've got that already but it still happens. If the woman's position in a relationship is subservient making a frankly daft law about wearing the burkha won't change that, but it will change the tolerant nature of our society for the worse.
"Telling a person what he or she can or can wear is daft and goes against a persons human rights. "
This is what the compulsory wearing of a burka IS - a signifier that the wearer's human rights are managed by someone else. Unacceptable.
It is the rights of male muslims to take away the choice of a woman to show her face that we object to, NOT the woman's right to wear the burka.
In the words of Basil Fawlty "Please understand this before one of us dies..".
The burka is a sign that religious law has trumped the civil rights of individuals.
Jonkers
says...
11:54am Tue 3 Aug 10
bourne free wrote:very funny.
what input does a burka have in the olympics , any ideas ? Would it be classed as cheating in the sailing ?
glennzilla
says...
11:55am Tue 3 Aug 10
I would like to see a global Secular society where religion can provide comfort and spiritual guidance to those who wish to follow but not dictate how we should live, love or despise. Perhaps in 500 years people will look back on this time and shake their heads with astonishment at our actions in much the same way that we do about the Crusades and the Inquistion.
Jonkers
says...
12:41pm Tue 3 Aug 10
hawkwoman wrote:Oh dear.
I think that the Berka should be banned in England. If they want to come to our country they should respect our rules. I could not go into a shop school bank or anywhere else wearing a crash helmet or a balaclava so why should they be unidentifiable? Remember the saying when in Spain... well why not when in England? I am not against these people but they should do as we do when in this country. I am sick and tired of the way we are treated in this "Our England." If anybody speaks out they get arrested. I worked with so many old people who said they fought for this country and say look what it has come to? So sad.
'Berka'? 'When in Spain'? shop school bank?
Hmmmmm.
And I actually agree with you.
Frank2010
says...
6:55pm Tue 3 Aug 10
Either accept our ways or go back from where you came!
Norman Mead
says...
8:35am Wed 4 Aug 10
Frank2010 wrote:OMG what a bigoted, xenophobic view. Who says Muslims want to change the way we live in our country? And who are 'these Muslims' anyhow? There are many different types of Muslim, coming from many different places with different customs.
If any person wants to reside or visit this country then they must abide by our rules and our traditions. In the case of these Muslim's they want to change the way we live in our own country. Why then we ask do they want to live here? Could be something to do with the benefit system or could it be they can party, be promiscuous, gamble and drink where they cannot in their own country. So come over here to cheat on their own religion but try and change the way we live and have lived for 100's of years.
Either accept our ways or go back from where you came!
As for the comments about promiscuity, gambling and drinking, if they did that, wouldn't they be 'assimilating' with our culture? In which case, what have you got to complain about?!
And we've lived this way for hundreds of years, have we? Most of the British traditions you would probably claim to cherish were invented in Victorian times or later.
Jonkers
says...
11:10am Wed 4 Aug 10
Norman Mead wrote:"OMG what a bigoted, xenophobic view"
Frank2010 wrote: If any person wants to reside or visit this country then they must abide by our rules and our traditions. In the case of these Muslim's they want to change the way we live in our own country. Why then we ask do they want to live here? Could be something to do with the benefit system or could it be they can party, be promiscuous, gamble and drink where they cannot in their own country. So come over here to cheat on their own religion but try and change the way we live and have lived for 100's of years. Either accept our ways or go back from where you came!OMG what a bigoted, xenophobic view. Who says Muslims want to change the way we live in our country? And who are 'these Muslims' anyhow? There are many different types of Muslim, coming from many different places with different customs. As for the comments about promiscuity, gambling and drinking, if they did that, wouldn't they be 'assimilating' with our culture? In which case, what have you got to complain about?! And we've lived this way for hundreds of years, have we? Most of the British traditions you would probably claim to cherish were invented in Victorian times or later.
Which I suspect is held by the vast majority of the population. Not that they would admit it.
Bad Rabbit
says...
11:57am Fri 6 Aug 10
So thats 2.4 Million people, of them, only one school insists on either the full veil (niqab or burka) the Hanbali.
Hanbali represents 4% of the Muslim population so that means there are less than 95 Thousand Hanbali's in the UK.
Of these let's say that 25% are men and 50% are children under 18, none of which are obliged to wear the niqab or burqa.
That leaves 23,834 women who officially "have" to wear the burqa.
But of course, a good number of these women will wear it only when they feel they can't avoid it, especially the younger ones.
So let's shave off another 20% to take us under 20,000 people of which 40% live in London.
When you take out the North of England, the Midlands, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, how many women does that leave for The South Eats and South West?
Lets be generous and say 25% - less than 3,000 people spread from Dover to Penzance.
Ignore Southampton, Brighton, Dover, Reading and Bristol, how many left - maybe 10%?
++
286 women.
Of which how many are in Bournemouth?
Maybe another 10%?
Good to know you are all so worried about the impact of 28 women on British Society.
++
Furthermore, Frank 2010 what the hell are you talking about?
Our Rules and Traditions?
Do you mean Law?
They must abide by and submit to our laws?
You know because I'm British and I've never been passed a copy of the British Rule Book.
D'you have one spare mate?
As for out "Traditions", which ones are you refering to?
The Dorset and Somerset ones like Wassailing the Apple Trees?
The nailing a wren to stick and going from door-to-door showing it to people?
Or the one about going down to the coast on a stormy night trying to lure ships onto the cliffs?
I mean those are our local traditions in the South West.
Because FrankIQof10 if you don't follow "our ways" and have whistled on a Sunday or driven your car with a man with a red flag, let me paraphrase someone.
Why then we ask do you want to live here? Could be something to do with the benefit system or could it be you can spout ignorant garbage without having to have checked up on any facts because my opinion is more important than reality?
So come over here and change the way we live and have lived for 100's of years.
Either accept our ways or go back from where you came!
And Frank mate, that rock you came out from under shouldn't be too hard to find.
It should have Rainbowkisses painted all over it.
glennzilla
says...
5:10pm Fri 6 Aug 10
Secondly, I have one question for you. Our society demands equality for all, so could you please inform us what number/percentage of oppressed women should we allow ourselves to become concerned with?
Bad Rabbit
says...
12:03pm Sat 7 Aug 10
I urge you to read all of the contributions on this thread before you read any more of this.
The comments, with the small exceptions of a few break into three camps.
There are the I hate foreigners, the moslems are a security threat and the ones like you, burkas are oppression.
They aren't different, they are all anti-muslim, they are all islamophobic, however, they are all VERY western in their outlook.
The basis of western civilisation, the basis of western reason is logic and logic is confrontational.
It is binary, it is black and white, one and zero, right and wrong, it does not allow any other outcome.
++
So let's deal with each of these arguments, starting with the racist xenophobes.
The "I hate foreigners brigade" which Bournemouth has so many of and has seemingly had forever, well they are entitled to their opinion.
Maybe if it was an educated one and not born from those people sense of worthlessness and fear of the different, others might feel less need to pour scorn and contempt all over that opinion and laugh at them.
But you see I grew up facing that "all foreigners are scum" group in Bournemouth, because one of my parents was not English.
No she was German, I mean a white christian woman, who only really wanted to fit in, but she was German and therefore worthy of hate and contempt.
So much so that she decided from a young age that her kids would never be taught German so that they wouldn't have to suffer.
++
Let's move on to security.
Now I live in Malaysia, a Sunni Muslim majority country, which is under the Shafie school of jurisprudence.
Malay women wear the Tudung, a head overing with no veil, because Shafie Muslim jurists argue there is no need for the niqab or burqa.
Yet Malaysia attracts large numbers of Hanbali tourists from the middle east.
I travel a lot for my job, so I'm in Immigration queues a lot, how do they handle these woman?
Female immigration officer asks here to whip aside their veils and compares to the photo.
Should she not comply, she doesn't go through.
In Thailand they just use a camera to do the same thing with facial recognition photography, in Japan they go with digital fingerprinting as well.
Security issues? Not really, just follow some basic common-sense and you're done and dusted.
But let's be honest here, the security argument isn't real anyway, it's about knowing that sounding like a racist xenophobe might make you look bad.
So you need to create some ****-and-bull cover story to make you sound less like the racist no-good you are.
++
Now lets deal with you Glenzilla and everyone else who thinks making a statement like "burqas are oppression" is the same as having a reasoned argument.
Let's just look at what you said, "our society demands equality for all" and I bet you had a straight face when you said it too.
"Our Society" spouts on and on about equality for all, but since when has it lived up to that?
Oh I know our society believes that but when has that EVER been true?
Today women still cannot earn the same amount of money as men in many jobs.
Today Where people will talk as they did on my street, that beyond that junction it's council houses and those aren't our kind of people.
A society that was split between upper, middle and lower classes; a society where being openly Jewish can still hold you back?
A society where people can still be described with a straight face as being nice even though they're black.
And seeing as you wanted to open up the view of society, how more likely are you to go for jail if you're black?
How much more likely are you to be turned down for interviews if you're from a different race?
If you want any credibility why don't you focus on living up to the ideals you say your society demands but does not deliver?]
Why don't you focus on living those ideals and working to make sure everyone around you does the same.
The fact that you cannot see the arrogance of your last post is the most frightening thing of all.
You cannot see the hypocrisy of demanding people live up to a set of standards your own society ignores and spits on daily.
glennzilla
says...
3:44pm Sat 7 Aug 10
For you to judge my character and find me guilty of Western societies' failings based on the few words I have used to express my opinions is, in my eyes, an act of monumental arrogance.
Also, you question my sincerity and unless you know me personally I will never be able to prove that I am not what you accuse me of being.
I strive to abide by society demands and expect others to do so as well. Whether you you believe this or not does not bother me.
Have a good day and I wish you a happy life in Malaysia.
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CONTROVERSIAL: A Muslim woman wearing the burka
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baron hardup says...
10:17am Sat 31 Jul 10