Reaction as French MPs vote to ban full face veil (From Bournemouth Echo)
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Reaction as French MPs vote to ban full face veil
9:30am Sunday 18th July 2010 in
FRENCH MPs voted this week to approve overwhelmingly a bill to ban the wearing of the Islamic full veil in public. Berengere Poletti, an MP from President Sarkozy’s UMP party, said women in full veils wore “a sign of alienation on their faces” and had to be “liberated”.
But the Sister who is the head teacher at Bournemouth Islamic Centre and Central Mosque told me: “They are so wrong!”
“By banning the niqab [a veil covering the lower part of the face] do the French government think that’s it, the end of the niqab?” she asked.
“These beautiful women will uncover for no one – they will stand proud of what they believe in and stand tall against anyone.”
“I feel so privileged to live here in the UK. We are free and I know the hijab [headscarf that sometimes incorporates a face veil] will never be banned here – we are more tolerant of others.
“Who are those in government to dictate what we can wear? Really, what harm are these women doing to others? “Aren’t we individuals? Please understand these women are following a religion of peace. They, like myself, want a peaceful way of life, to love others as we want to be loved back; to respect others as we want to be respected. “Our aim is to please Allah; to cover and be modest is such a beautiful expression of faith.”
Tariq Palmer, public relations spokesman for the Bournemouth Islamic Centre and Central Mosque, said: “The French have a reputation of clashing with elements of their society and they have been itching for years to upset Muslims – ironic, really, given the number of Muslims in and around Paris! “I can never understand why the wearing of a veil or other form of face covering is so hated and feared among so-called intelligent people.”
The French vote is being closely watched in other countries, with Spain and Belgium also debating similar legislation.
A ComRes survey found that two-thirds of Britons believed that wearing the burqa [the all-enveloping garment] should be illegal in places such as banks and airports and one third wanted an outright ban on face veils in public.
The Rev Anne Gee, priest for the villages north of Wimborne, felt the ban in France was a “good thing”. “Essentially, this is a Christian continent,” she told me. “We express ourselves facially. Moses spoke to God face to face; we should also see one another face to face.
“Happiness, sadness, kindness, love will all be seen in our facial expression. “In our Christian vocation we are called to allow the light of Christ to shine through us. It will show in our faces. There is no need to hide.”
• Would you like to engage with the debate? Email your views to faith matters@rutholiver.com.
Comments(73)
High Treason
says...
10:23am Sun 18 Jul 10
No, we are not tolerant, in fact many are sick to death of Islam being used as an excuse for some to have their own way. The only reason we appear to be more tolerant of others is simply because its breaking the law to show you are being otherwise. We are no longer able to say what we believe because we are classed as racist and say the wrong thing in the eyes of the law and you will be prosecuted. I think this country is on the brink of civil unrest simply because all governments ignore the views of the majority of the population.
KLH
says...
10:34am Sun 18 Jul 10
rainbowkisses wrote:Totally agree. My own personal opinion is that if we westerners go to Islamic countries we have to respect their cultures and there is often very severe results for those who don't. Yes, we are a tolerant nation in the UK, but at the end of the day when we have nationals from Islamic countries who want to harm us in the name of their religion, then the time has come to start being sensible about it.
“I feel so privileged to live here in the UK. We are free and I know the hijab will never be banned here – we are more tolerant of others. ....... I wouldn't go as far to say never. Sooner or later there will be a war between the west and Muslim countries. When it happens, I don't think you will feel so privilaged to be living in the UK. If you have not worked out that the people of this country are slowly but surely getting cheesed off having to adapt our way of life to accommadate yours, then you might want to get your heads out of the clouds. As for the comment that Musilms just want to follow a religion of peace, I think you will find that there is a lot of people who don't see Islam as a peaceful religion, but one of violence and intolerence of others. Alienate yourselves from the rest of the country if that is what you want to do, but don't moan when that country brings in laws you dont like.
I heard a saying once, that not every Muslim is a terrorist, but most terrorists are Muslims, and I'm sorry to say, I agree. How do we know if the person under the veil or burka is a man or woman at the end, these coverings are unisex at the end of the day - who knows, and they can be used to conceal weapons or explosives, and at a time when the majority of terrorist activities are the result of radical Muslims, then they must surely understand this side of it too. I do have a lot of sympathy for those women who are pressurised into covering up by men, then it is not their choice. Muslims really need to get their own house in order before criticising and rather than complain about the fact that some countries want to ban the veil/burka , they need to start looking close to home and sort out the radicals. I'm just glad I'm Western
chris100
says...
10:41am Sun 18 Jul 10
i dont want to see some thing walking round that resembles looking throu a bloody letterbox
right im off to build a church in there country
Bob49
says...
10:53am Sun 18 Jul 10
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There is nothing in the Islamic religion that instructs women to dress in this way.
. "We are free"
Because we can see those that maintain that freedom. Our politicians, judiciary and police are seen. How would it be (other than the delightful irony) were it to be that those who banned the burka were hidden ? What complaints would there be from the muslim community about secretive. oppressive government ?
.
As to we then perhaps a greater understanding of what 'we' means might help. It is not trying to justify something that says 'you and us' not we. The burka is nothing more than a tool of that seperation.
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With freedom comes responsibility Something that seems to missing greatly here.
that freedom is carried out and maintained
Syd Poumen
says...
10:55am Sun 18 Jul 10
religious hatred by printing this article?
I guess I should beware as the Echo police security word is 'hand-tear'!
Square Old Codger
says...
11:08am Sun 18 Jul 10
Xchurch-man
says...
11:26am Sun 18 Jul 10
Yet another example of the PC cr*p that killed off the last Government.
Why exactly is defending your own culture and traditions "un-British" Mr Green?
Islam seeks to dominate and control all it encompasses by being the loudest voice. It demands that it's culture and traditions are not offended, and that it has the freedom to impose it's own laws.
We all know that these laws extend to us as well, draw a cartoon they don't like and you will be murdered!!
Lets demand that our spineless gutless leaders defend OUR cultures and traditions. Thats not "un-British". It's defending freedom of speech, womens rights, a secular society and democratic way of life we have evolved over several thousand years. In the last few hundred years we invented a form of Democracy that most of the Free World has tried to copy. How Ironic that we give in to a religion and culture in which freedom and democracy has no place, and is in fact actively discouraged.
Did the last Government not learn that all this spineless attitude does is encourage support for far right Nazi groups?
Protecting the British way of life and culture is not something to be ashamed of, and certainly should not be left to the extreme right. Get on with it now Mr Green, it was one of the reasons people voted Tory!!!
psal
says...
11:30am Sun 18 Jul 10
Yes, you are privileged to be living here in the UK and by coming here you and your fellow country men and women should respect our values and traditions.
Some of your people are now trying to get Sharia Law implemented into our judicial system and forcing our traditions to your way of thinking.
Should we now start chopping off the hands of a common thief and publicly stoning to death a woman who has a relationship with a man before marriage. Barbaric.
How are you supposed to integrate into our society when your face cannot be seen. If I passed you a dozen times in the street I would not know it was the same person.
You and other muslims have come to the UK for a better life I presume, but all you want to do is change our way of life and our way of thinking which is causing unrest amongst the people.
I think you will find that more than a third would like to see the banning of the full face veil in public. It does not fit in with who we are and never will.
I also think our new government will, like Spain and Belgium be watching the French vote very carefully and public pressure will force them to also
vote on banning this garment which has no place in the UK.
zagzig
says...
11:38am Sun 18 Jul 10
Glashen
says...
11:39am Sun 18 Jul 10
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Of course we should disapprove, particularly when the form of dress separates the wearer from the rest of society, and appears to be a form of sexism. We should make it clear that women should not be coerced into Islamic dress and we should not coerce them through legislation into western dress.
ski
says...
11:52am Sun 18 Jul 10
Yes we are tolerant in this country but too much so in my opinion, we allow our young girls to dress like hookers and both young boys and girls drink themselves stupid in our country and when abroad, we appear decadent in the west to the Islamic faith.I do not condone violence to put ones opinion accross as all religions do since man invented it,but as the old saying goes "You reap what you sow" or in modern parlence "What goes around comes around" religion whatever its doctrine is the cause of wars throughout history.
PokesdownMark
says...
12:05pm Sun 18 Jul 10
So lets try to get some idea of how many women are co-erced into it versus how many have this as their own choice? Its all very well asking spokespersons who are clearly going to have an obvious view. But how many women are on each side of my question? Is it 50:50? 10:90? 1:99?
.
And lets not be side tracked into historic distraction or into one religion versus another. This is about tradition as much as religion. The kind of vile tradition like child genital mutilation. That most awful form of child abuse that somehow we allow to hide behind tradition/religion. That we do always boggles my mind. Tradition has the power to corrupt. If it takes a government to make a collective decision to break a cycle of evil, then so be it. But lets be clear that veils fit into this category. Count the numbers. Measure the world.
High Treason
says...
12:05pm Sun 18 Jul 10
Syd Poumen wrote:What a load of rubbish. In fact we need more debate on issues such as this. I am not bothered if its claimed and I repeat claimed, it offends some. I find many mosques offensive as being alien to their surroundings and they bypass planning laws. Enoch Powell was correct with his "Rivers of Blood " point of view.
Hands up (or off for!) those that believe the Echo is trying to stir r religious hatred by printing this article? I guess I should beware as the Echo police security word is 'hand-tear'!
Glashen
says...
12:11pm Sun 18 Jul 10
Quoted from Ski
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Actually I don't think religion is the cause of wars, in the end it is always people who do bad things, they use religion as an excuse. All religions have plenty of good advice on how to live a good life and most include peace and harmony as essential. I must also point out the atheistic philosophies have hardly got clean hands just look at Stalin and Mao.
Maybe we should all try to see the other's point of view, which is a major Christian tenet, as it happens.
I speak as an agnostic.
busguy
says...
12:41pm Sun 18 Jul 10
Xchurch-man wrote:STRONGLY agree!
The new Immigration minister Damian Green says in todays Sunday Telegraph, that banning veils here in the UK would be "un-British". Yet another example of the PC cr*p that killed off the last Government. Why exactly is defending your own culture and traditions "un-British" Mr Green? Islam seeks to dominate and control all it encompasses by being the loudest voice. It demands that it's culture and traditions are not offended, and that it has the freedom to impose it's own laws. We all know that these laws extend to us as well, draw a cartoon they don't like and you will be murdered!! Lets demand that our spineless gutless leaders defend OUR cultures and traditions. Thats not "un-British". It's defending freedom of speech, womens rights, a secular society and democratic way of life we have evolved over several thousand years. In the last few hundred years we invented a form of Democracy that most of the Free World has tried to copy. How Ironic that we give in to a religion and culture in which freedom and democracy has no place, and is in fact actively discouraged. Did the last Government not learn that all this spineless attitude does is encourage support for far right Nazi groups? Protecting the British way of life and culture is not something to be ashamed of, and certainly should not be left to the extreme right. Get on with it now Mr Green, it was one of the reasons people voted Tory!!!
Come on Mr Green, we should protect the British way of life because that is one of the main (last?) reasons Britain is GREAT.
mikesview
says...
1:46pm Sun 18 Jul 10
ban the black veil
we need to see people to talk to them
2nd idea
ban all muslims
vote
british indi party
taffeeeee
says...
1:48pm Sun 18 Jul 10
Syd Poumen wrote:why is the echo stiring up racial hatred by printing the article ?
Hands up (or off for!) those that believe the Echo is trying to stir r
religious hatred by printing this article?
I guess I should beware as the Echo police security word is 'hand-tear'!
this is something that affects everyone in this country and we should talk and read about it.I personally think that the veil should be banned,if muslims want to come and live in our country and enjoy our way of life then live as we do and not as you want,if you want to live as you want then you all know where you can go on a one way ticket back to your homelands no one is making muslims or any other race/faiths stay here.
It's about time governments the people that we allect should start to listen to what we the people want and not what suits the minority in this country for far to long we have been pandering to others now i think its time we were listened to.Muslim people and other faiths this is not meant to offend but if you want to live in our country LIVE OUR WAY.
i can hear it now because i dare write what most people think i am now being classed as a racisist
busguy
says...
2:07pm Sun 18 Jul 10
taffeeeee wrote:taffeeeee, there's a lot of people think exactly the way you are thinking. They are British and proud of it, and not in any way racist.
Syd Poumen wrote: Hands up (or off for!) those that believe the Echo is trying to stir r religious hatred by printing this article? I guess I should beware as the Echo police security word is 'hand-tear'!why is the echo stiring up racial hatred by printing the article ? this is something that affects everyone in this country and we should talk and read about it.I personally think that the veil should be banned,if muslims want to come and live in our country and enjoy our way of life then live as we do and not as you want,if you want to live as you want then you all know where you can go on a one way ticket back to your homelands no one is making muslims or any other race/faiths stay here. It's about time governments the people that we allect should start to listen to what we the people want and not what suits the minority in this country for far to long we have been pandering to others now i think its time we were listened to.Muslim people and other faiths this is not meant to offend but if you want to live in our country LIVE OUR WAY. i can hear it now because i dare write what most people think i am now being classed as a racisist
Well done The Echo for reporting how it is in France.
tonyrichards1
says...
2:18pm Sun 18 Jul 10
Their birth countries are being invaded by the west, over oil and power.. If I was a young Muslim, I would stand up and fight by any means to keep the invaders out of my country...as indeed we did with the Germans...
Do not persecute innocent people in this country who contribute big time to the economy of this country...
.
In fact they help pay the dole money to the wasters, who are the ones we should be finding criticism of...We are all equal in this world...we fought for freedom and should stand by that creed....
The same ball **** is being spouted off at the Iranian people by the power hungry Israeli backed Americans
High Treason
says...
2:51pm Sun 18 Jul 10
taffeeeee wrote:taffeeeee wrote:
Syd Poumen wrote: Hands up (or off for!) those that believe the Echo is trying to stir r religious hatred by printing this article? I guess I should beware as the Echo police security word is 'hand-tear'!why is the echo stiring up racial hatred by printing the article ? this is something that affects everyone in this country and we should talk and read about it.I personally think that the veil should be banned,if muslims want to come and live in our country and enjoy our way of life then live as we do and not as you want,if you want to live as you want then you all know where you can go on a one way ticket back to your homelands no one is making muslims or any other race/faiths stay here. It's about time governments the people that we allect should start to listen to what we the people want and not what suits the minority in this country for far to long we have been pandering to others now i think its time we were listened to.Muslim people and other faiths this is not meant to offend but if you want to live in our country LIVE OUR WAY. i can hear it now because i dare write what most people think i am now being classed as a racisist
If muslims want to come and live in our country and enjoy our way of life then live as we do and not as you want...........
But they only want to live in our country for the best things we have. NHS, free schooling, child allowance, benefits and even most council and government printed in their language. Only in the UK and thats why so many come here.
Veronique
says...
3:26pm Sun 18 Jul 10
Probably the best thing that can happen is that we all get around wearing a pleasant little lapel badge on our clothing if we want to announce what we are in an ideological sense. And not wear any little badge if we don't want.
Then Muslim women could do away with their burqas. They do look like post-boxes and they do look awful and they are for hiding behind - no matter what spin the Muslim women and men want to put on it - be it demanded by the mullahs, male relatives or the oh-so-pious 'celebrating Allah' excuse.
I fail to see how banning this form of identity theft can be seen as un-British. It isn't un-anything. It is just asking that a populace adhere to the dominant cultural theme.
In the UK that is secularism, not religion or even the pathetically silly CofE bleating its way through acceptance of female and gay priests and marginalising itself even further in the public eye. Good grief.
Some Muslim women seem to think that banning the burqa will create further division within communities.
Bunkum. If that happens it will be because those Muslims who want to promote ideological division will be spruiking it.
Otherwise no one will notice anything because we all have faces to which the rest of us can respond. And we will be able to be seen wherever we are. Now isn't that a novel idea!!
So give up a little cultural twaddle and start marketing little lapel badges - like mine. It says in tasteful silver writing 'atheist' and I wear it at about collarbone level on whatever my outermost piece of clothing may be.
What in pity's name is wrong with that as a compromise?
Upkeep
says...
4:42pm Sun 18 Jul 10
rainbowkisses
says...
5:01pm Sun 18 Jul 10
ski wrote:".....and when abroad, we appear decadent in the west to the Islamic faith......" May'be we do Ski, but that doesn't stop thousands of Muslims wanting to come to this country to wallow in that decadence. I wonder how many young Muslims have been picked up by the Police, p****d out of their skulls, (drinking alcohol is against their religion)then use the "you are picking on me because I'm a Muslim excuse?" Then there are those that want the rest of this country forced to obey their Muslim laws. As one comment said, if they don't like our way of life, feel free to get a one way ticket to another country. They go out of their way to make themselves different. With very few exceptions, you don't hear many Muslims standing up and condeming terrorists. As I pointed out earlier...sooner or later there will be a full scale war between Muslim countries and non Muslim countries. Will be interesting to see which side these people take then.
The christian/catholic faiths do not have a great track record,how many thousands have been murdered in wars by the followers of these religions pushing their brand of faith. Yes we are tolerant in this country but too much so in my opinion, we allow our young girls to dress like hookers and both young boys and girls drink themselves stupid in our country and when abroad, we appear decadent in the west to the Islamic faith.I do not condone violence to put ones opinion accross as all religions do since man invented it,but as the old saying goes "You reap what you sow" or in modern parlence "What goes around comes around" religion whatever its doctrine is the cause of wars throughout history.
EGHH
says...
5:21pm Sun 18 Jul 10
Arjay
says...
5:22pm Sun 18 Jul 10
Upkeep wrote:With modern education widely available in many parts of the world - especially the western world - I'm amazed that any of the collections of medieval fairy stories, posing as religion in one form or another, has survived as long as it has.
Dont ban the burka, ban religion. Nothing but bloody trouble.
As Upkeep says, nothing but trouble.
I can understand in those areas of the world where education is a little less modern, that the 'fire and brimstone' approach of the Victorian preachers of Christianity still survives.
After all, senior clergy in all religious faiths are essentially political animals, and in these less open societies their influence can still be quite devastating. They're not going to relinqush their power lightly.
I fear it may still be a couple of generations, at least, before common sense prevails, and the beneficial pastoral aspects of the world's religions are separated from the nonsensical fairy story aspects.
There's still going to be trouble in the meantime, I fear.
Rather sad really.
Veronique
says...
5:32pm Sun 18 Jul 10
That paper reported on local news, events, community and, for some unknown reason, it also reported on news that was of interest outside its smallish local area.
It was patently obvious that readers appreciated that because of the letters pages that grew and grew and by now take up about a quarter of the paper.
I find it fascinating that people living in smallish areas should be interested in things that happen outside that area, don't you?
I mean, the ruddy cheek of it. Why can't they stay within their own small confines and eschew commenting outside their own boundaries:-).
Glashen
says...
5:36pm Sun 18 Jul 10
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As Voltaire might have said.
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I agree it would be un British to ban an item of clothing. If our views of a tolerant society are to prevail we must not be led into intolerance for whatever good reasons.
Glashen
says...
5:41pm Sun 18 Jul 10
EGHH wrote:Yes!
Does this news story affect the Bournemouth area? No! I thought the Echo was supposed to be a local paper unless of course the Echo now covers La Belle France!!
-
This story does affect our area!
bourne free
says...
5:51pm Sun 18 Jul 10
Was Charlie
says...
6:40pm Sun 18 Jul 10
...........
The male terrorist who fled the country in a female burkha ruined any tolerance for these garments.
...........
We don't like any teenagers covering their faces with a hood - exactly the same thing. Not racist or anti-religion - just common sense. A head scarf is fine, as is anything which doesn't hide your face.
30850LordNelson
says...
8:12pm Sun 18 Jul 10
There could even be built in chimneys for their cigarette/spliff smoke
X Old Bill
says...
8:20pm Sun 18 Jul 10
The Burqa and the niqab have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Islam. They are not a requirement written into the Quer'an, they are not required by any of the ancient teachings.
They Pre-date Islam and the Prophet Mohammed. They are ancient tribal traditions used by the primitive people then dwelling in the deserts of Arabia.
The two things became associated because Islam requires women to dress modestly, so as not to attract unwanted attention. The people who first adopted Islam already had their women covered up, so they continued to do so.
The hijab is considered 'proper attire' mainly because that is a cultural feature in Islamic countries -It is not an absolute requirement to wear it.
Bob49
says...
8:52pm Sun 18 Jul 10
.
Political correctness, it's gone mad, baa, baaa, hedgehog flavoured cucumbers baaa baaa, pc world baaa baa, pc plod ,baaaa political correctness baaa baaa
.
there does seem to be the same Daily Mail fundamentalists who who dress every argument up in the Burka of political correctness
.
whilst it can be rather amusing, it does carry slighty sinister Orwellian/Goebbels type overtones where everything is reduced to a vacuous slogan.
McVICAR
says...
9:02pm Sun 18 Jul 10
11:39am Sun 18 Jul 10
Are we so lacking in confidence of our way of life that we need to legislate as to what people should wear, does the Burka threaten us.
That already happens, how is it that anyone wearing a hoodie, young or old, is not allowed in shopping centre's and supermarkets etc but it is perfectly ok to wander around looking like Dick Turpin and get away with it
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MJD
says...
10:26pm Sun 18 Jul 10
rook
says...
10:49pm Sun 18 Jul 10
EGHH wrote:Exactly - I'd rather hear more 'small' local stories and discuss this sort of thing on national forums.
Does this news story affect the Bournemouth area? No! I thought the Echo was supposed to be a local paper unless of course the Echo now covers La Belle France!!
It might affect the local area, and I have read the comments, but agree that it's an example of the sort of article published just to stir up comment.
ducati
says...
10:54pm Sun 18 Jul 10
Does this news story affect the Bournemouth area? No! I thought the Echo was supposed to be a local paper unless of course the Echo now covers La Belle France!!
Listen EGHH... Oh course this story effects the Bournemouth area and should you ever get out of your lounge and venture into the big wide world, you would quickly realise that it effects the whole world. This is an excellent example of up to date journalism and interesting to learn if our local islamic community agrees with this view point. It seems right on the button to me. In summary I suggest its reader consider the wider view!
Glashen
says...
11:11pm Sun 18 Jul 10
ducati wrote:I think the number of comments makes the point that few agree with EGHH
EGHH wrote:
Does this news story affect the Bournemouth area? No! I thought the Echo was supposed to be a local paper unless of course the Echo now covers La Belle France!!
Listen EGHH... Oh course this story effects the Bournemouth area and should you ever get out of your lounge and venture into the big wide world, you would quickly realise that it effects the whole world. This is an excellent example of up to date journalism and interesting to learn if our local islamic community agrees with this view point. It seems right on the button to me. In summary I suggest its reader consider the wider view!
Glashen
says...
11:20pm Sun 18 Jul 10
McVICAR wrote:I have no problem with airports, banks, supermarkets insisting customers uncover their face if they wish to use the service. The customer has the choice not to use the service.
Glashen, Christchurch says...
11:39am Sun 18 Jul 10
Are we so lacking in confidence of our way of life that we need to legislate as to what people should wear, does the Burka threaten us.
That already happens, how is it that anyone wearing a hoodie, young or old, is not allowed in shopping centre's and supermarkets etc but it is perfectly ok to wander around looking like Dick Turpin and get away with it
-
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That is very different from what the French are proposing which is a ban on face covering garments such as the face-covering niqab or body-covering burka, anywhere in public.
golden mouldie
says...
12:24am Mon 19 Jul 10
Glashen wrote:Please tell me then why people are not allowed to wear crash helmets when entering Government buildings, or post offices or petrol stations?
I do not agree with what you wear, but I'll defend to the death your right to wear it.
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As Voltaire might have said.
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I agree it would be un British to ban an item of clothing. If our views of a tolerant society are to prevail we must not be led into intolerance for whatever good reasons.
I've not seen you turning cartwheels to undo that.
Bad Rabbit
says...
5:50am Mon 19 Jul 10
In Iran, most women wear their headscarf so far back on their heads they look like they'll blow off in a light breeze.
In Pakistan, the bulk of women don't wear them at all. In Indonesia, it's not uncommon to see Muslim woment not wear the Tudung, as it is in Malaysia.
In Malaysia where I live, the only people who wear the full face veil are Arab tourists. Burqa's are still not common.
To take the extreme, violent and suicidal behaviour of some and claim that all Muslims, (or even worse the intellectually dihonest "most Muslims") is stupid, ignorant and bigoted.
You could argue that because of the behaviour of a few sick people, all Christians are Paedophiles.
Or that the inputs of so many readers to this story mean that Bournemouth is filled with mean-minded, fear-filled ignorant mouth-breathers.
Of course we all know that this isn't the case, the fearful, the baleful and the malign are the minority everywhere. They should be stood up to as well, no matter what nationality, colour, faith, creed or belief thay have.
If you love your way of life as much as you do and think it is the best way, then demonstrate it by living it. Not by telling others how bad theirs is.
In Malaysia, a Muslim majority country, I have endless discussions about how my view as a Mat Salleh, (foreigner) and as a supposed "Kristian", (although I'm lapsed at best) differs from theirs, with Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhs. Because of that we get closer, not further apart.
That isn't PC Gone Mad, it's being human and saying no I will not become everythign I say I despise.
rayc
says...
8:15am Mon 19 Jul 10
As a non muslim I was not even allowed in the cities of Mecca and Medina.
Be aware that Islam does want to rule the World. All those rights that Emily Pankhurst fought for will taken away and many more.
retired lady
says...
9:05am Mon 19 Jul 10
ctrewyou
says...
9:21am Mon 19 Jul 10
I have a question though: what exactly is OUR British culture? As we are a nation built on waves of immigration going back to Roman times, which bit of British culture are people referring to? The Anglo-Saxon (ie: German) bit? The Norman (ie: French) bit? Our army (Gurkhas / Indians / Poles who defended Britain in 2 world wars)? Our Empire (raped and pillaged a third of the globe over a couple of hundred years)?
This was an article about what has happened in France, and has been used as the same old Islam bashing that we have come to expect from basically ignorant people.
Change the word muslim to Jew and see if the same comments still feel OK.The arguments above reflect what was being discused in the 1930's regarding Jewish people. A lot of British people then were in favour of what Hitler was doing and were in favour of sending those foreigners (who had been in Britain for several hundred years) 'home'.
My grandfathers fought in world war 2 to defend Britain from fascism, and the comments made above makes me feel that their sacrifice was in vain, and the fascists have won.
History lesson over.
Norman Mead
says...
9:52am Mon 19 Jul 10
ekimnoslen
says...
11:17am Mon 19 Jul 10
It is therefore merely a personal fashion statement. They must of course be removed for security reasons or at the request of an officer of the law and establishments serving the public must have the absolute right to refuse to deal with any person whose face is covered in any way.
Inner Sanctum
says...
11:33am Mon 19 Jul 10
Any UK business can refuse entrance and service to those covering their faces from their CCTV, or thereby expressing an anti-social sub-culture.
This should extend to all transport hubs premises, not just the check-in.
Bad Rabbit
says...
12:04pm Mon 19 Jul 10
It is a requirement from many of the Hadith, the other set of holy books for Muslims.
And then only for certain Hadith, from certain Muslim schools of faith.
You see the divisions between Muslims go well beyond Sunni and Shi'ite.
The Sunni are split as well across multiple groups or Madh'hab or fiqh.
The biggest of these are:
1. Shafi'i
2. Hanafi
3. Maliki
4. Hanbali
All of these are very different, very distinct and have very different requirements of their followers and each has different Hadith they recognise.
The Shia themselves are split into three different groups:
1. Itna Ashaiyyah (The Twelvers)
2. Ismaili
3. Zaidi.
Then of course you have the Sufi (otherwise known as the Whirling Dervishes) who define Islam as a Science and are considered mystics.
I mean when you start breaking it down it's a little like saying Christians are this, Christians are that regardless of whether they are Catholics,
Methodists, Baptists, Episcopalians, Quakers, Amish or any one of a hundred Christian sects.
Or that Jews are this, Jews are that and not broken by whether they are Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox, Haredi, Hasidic, Modern, Conservative, Reform, Deconstructionist, Renewal or Humanistic?
I mean you do know all about the Hadith, the Muslim schools of jurisprudence don't you?
We're not just speaking from ignorance are we, we're not trying to make dramatic statements for no real purpose by declaring this a fashion statement?
In Absentia
says...
12:21pm Mon 19 Jul 10
The move by Sarkozy is a cynical one designed to keep the right wing of his party quiet.
In Absentia
says...
12:29pm Mon 19 Jul 10
The Echo must have had to trawl round to find a priest in support of the French government.
McVICAR
says...
12:52pm Mon 19 Jul 10
Roll on the revolution.
Norman Mead
says...
1:06pm Mon 19 Jul 10
In Absentia wrote:Spot on. McTwitter take note.
It always amuses me when I hear those who moan about the loss of free speech and civil liberties in Britain then start ranting about banning things for others.
The move by Sarkozy is a cynical one designed to keep the right wing of his party quiet.
Norman Mead
says...
1:09pm Mon 19 Jul 10
McVICAR wrote:Would that be a revolution in punctuation?
I've never been a great lover of the french but I do admire their resolve on a lot of issues, what ever us brits are faced with we just roll over and accept it, at least the french fight their corner, if we had been the same we would probably not be paying so many taxes and ultra high rip off petrol prices.
Roll on the revolution.
mikey2gorgeous
says...
1:51pm Mon 19 Jul 10
McVICAR
says...
2:40pm Mon 19 Jul 10
mikey2gorgeous wrote:We've already lost it mate, Plus if you read my comment correctly instead of being eager to shoot off an another completely different argument I think you will find that I have said nothing about the increase in the muslim population in fact two of my work collegues are muslims and fantastic guys they are too.
It would be interesting to hear exactly how the increase in the British Muslim population has affected Rainbowkisses or McVicar? What is it exactly about 'the british way of life' you fear losing?
It seems to me that you have a bee in your bonnet about the rising population due to the fact that you even mention it.
Just because I disagree with the supposition that it is ok for someone to walk around everywhere looking like a highway robber but cannot go into a post office supermarket or shopping centre while wearing a crash helmet or hooded top does not make me a racist.
ctrewyou
says...
4:33pm Mon 19 Jul 10
If I were to say I would not let my children go to a British church because I am scared they will be abuse by paedophiles, would that be justified? According to some of the above points of view, it would, based on fear and narrow-mindedness. There has been a lot of publicity about priests abusing children, so all priests must be paedophiles? Of course not, that's a stupid argument. But it's the same argument as saying that because a tiny minority of muslims use their religion as a cover for their own twisted aims, then all muslims must at least support them. They dont, and muslim women wearing a veil do not pose a threat to 'British' way of life.
McVICAR
says...
5:21pm Mon 19 Jul 10
ctrewyou wrote:If your point of view is correct then, as i have said earlier, if someone can wear a veil and go any where thay please why should i not be able to wear my crash helmet or hooded top where ever i please without fear of persecution from the authorities.
Sorry McVICAR, it does, actually make you racist to say such things. It is clear fom the amount of posts on this site that people do have an unreasonable fear of muslims wearing the veil. Some have called it fashion, which is stupid. It is part of the culture, which some muslims choose to adhere to, but the majority do not. Simples. It poses no threat to 'us' and 'our' British way of life, whatever that is / was.
If I were to say I would not let my children go to a British church because I am scared they will be abuse by paedophiles, would that be justified? According to some of the above points of view, it would, based on fear and narrow-mindedness. There has been a lot of publicity about priests abusing children, so all priests must be paedophiles? Of course not, that's a stupid argument. But it's the same argument as saying that because a tiny minority of muslims use their religion as a cover for their own twisted aims, then all muslims must at least support them. They dont, and muslim women wearing a veil do not pose a threat to 'British' way of life.
Its nothing to do with being racist its to do with, what good for one person is good for the other.
Why you people have to jump on the racist bandwagon when someone expresses their view i dont know, its people such as yourselves that promote racism in this country.
This story was not about a tiny minority using their religion as a cover for twisted aims, that was a comment that you uttered, it was about whether the veil should be banned, the general opinion seems to be, if they are allowed to wear the veil anywhere then why cant we wear crash helmets and hoodies, or if we follow your argument, does it mean that any one wearing a hoodie or a crash helmet should be tagged as an armed robber of mugger, get a life, its all about being fair to everyone.
X Old Bill
says...
7:16pm Mon 19 Jul 10
Islam is not a race. It is a faith, religion or creed. People of any race can believe if they wish to do so.
.
The covering of a woman's face is not Islamic. It was an Arabic tribal custom for many centuries even before the birth of the Prophet Mohammed in 570CE.
.
The hijab, or head scarf is not actually Islamic either, it is a feature of normal cultural attire in many Countries where Islam is the major faith. The two things have become connected by common usage, also some men consider the a woman's hair is significantly alluring and they believe that it should be covered in order to avoid temptations of the flesh. This last feature is also found to influence Christian and Buddhist nuns habits and some other minority religions.
.
Where a State chooses to become Islamic then the religion also dictates much of what is considered by many to be outside the normal control of a religious authority. This situation may be strange to British subjects because we have not had such a regime since before Henry VIII. when it was considered normal here also. It is only recently that Bishops were routinely sitting in the Upper House.
.
If one sees a woman wearing a niqab, how do you know that she is a Muslim? She might not be. Any woman can wear a face veil, which is obviously wrong, and that seems to be what the French are trying to correct.
ben131297
says...
11:38pm Mon 19 Jul 10
Norman Mead
says...
8:30am Tue 20 Jul 10
McVICAR
says...
1:58pm Tue 20 Jul 10
Norman Mead wrote:I drive a car as well as a bike but when using the bike I always take off my crash helmet through pure courtesy when entering any form of shopping area so that people can see who they are serving, so yes I am in favor of it, there is also the fact that we are all viewed on cctv cameras wherever we go so I would think if anyone was involved in any trouble with anothe member of the public, and was caught on camera, they would want the offender identified, which these things deny.
McVICAR, you can wear your crash helmet in public (ie in the street and most other places). If shopkeepers ask you to remove it when entering their shop, that is their prerogative. However, if an outright ban is imposed on covering one's face in public, then surely it must also apply to your crash helmet? I'm surprised you're in favour of it.
carm11
says...
2:00pm Tue 20 Jul 10
carm11
says...
2:06pm Tue 20 Jul 10
bourne free wrote:Exactly! they are either kept by a man or milking the benefits system or probably both.
DO THESE BURKAS HAVE JOBS , IVE NEVER SEEN THEM WORKING .
Norman Mead
says...
9:05am Wed 21 Jul 10
carm11 wrote:Daily Mail reader eh? You do surprise me.
I was so upset to hear of the poor blind man turned off a bus by a muslim bus driver because he had a guide dog. This alone should prove that muslims are intolerant and should not be allowed their own way in our country. Ban the veil and sack the driver.
MartiB
says...
2:04pm Wed 21 Jul 10
If France want to ban them, thats their call. Personally I dislike the Burka and prefer to see the person I am talking too. However I am not going to start a revolution over it.
poolebabe
says...
6:05pm Wed 21 Jul 10
carm11
says...
10:42am Thu 22 Jul 10
Norman Mead wrote:You would be the most surprised. I am married to a Muslim who attends the mosque, he likes to see modern women wearing western dress and wants his children to be brought up likewise. We both disagree with the burka being worn here - it is being banned at this very moment in some Muslim countries and the attitude of the bus drivers turning off blind people is inhumane. If you think this is all great, then good luck to you, Saudi Arabia has a great climate. Yes I read the Mail along with all the papers.
carm11 wrote:Daily Mail reader eh? You do surprise me.
I was so upset to hear of the poor blind man turned off a bus by a muslim bus driver because he had a guide dog. This alone should prove that muslims are intolerant and should not be allowed their own way in our country. Ban the veil and sack the driver.
Dorset Mitch
says...
7:02am Fri 23 Jul 10
If Islam doesn't require the Burqa only for women to dress modestly then why is there an religion argueement?
Norman Mead
says...
8:33am Fri 23 Jul 10
carm11 wrote:So what? One Muslim woman doesn't have the right to tell another what to wear. And no, I don't agree with bus drivers turfing off blind people, but I treat these kind of stories with a pinch of salt - you should never believe anything you read in the papers.
Norman Mead wrote:You would be the most surprised. I am married to a Muslim who attends the mosque, he likes to see modern women wearing western dress and wants his children to be brought up likewise. We both disagree with the burka being worn here - it is being banned at this very moment in some Muslim countries and the attitude of the bus drivers turning off blind people is inhumane. If you think this is all great, then good luck to you, Saudi Arabia has a great climate. Yes I read the Mail along with all the papers.
carm11 wrote:Daily Mail reader eh? You do surprise me.
I was so upset to hear of the poor blind man turned off a bus by a muslim bus driver because he had a guide dog. This alone should prove that muslims are intolerant and should not be allowed their own way in our country. Ban the veil and sack the driver.
a.g.o.g.
says...
10:39am Fri 23 Jul 10
ctrewyou wrote:Noticed have you how Islam is changing the African way of life recently? Or death should I say...
Sorry McVICAR, it does, actually make you racist to say such things. It is clear fom the amount of posts on this site that people do have an unreasonable fear of muslims wearing the veil. Some have called it fashion, which is stupid. It is part of the culture, which some muslims choose to adhere to, but the majority do not. Simples. It poses no threat to 'us' and 'our' British way of life, whatever that is / was. If I were to say I would not let my children go to a British church because I am scared they will be abuse by paedophiles, would that be justified? According to some of the above points of view, it would, based on fear and narrow-mindedness. There has been a lot of publicity about priests abusing children, so all priests must be paedophiles? Of course not, that's a stupid argument. But it's the same argument as saying that because a tiny minority of muslims use their religion as a cover for their own twisted aims, then all muslims must at least support them. They dont, and muslim women wearing a veil do not pose a threat to 'British' way of life.
tariqdyab
says...
6:40pm Fri 23 Jul 10
what if Virgin Marry in this world , are they going to prevent her to wear veil?
The role of women in Islam is very important role . Islam show us how to respect this woman who is mother,sister and wife , and what is her rights , Islam valued the woman, and protected her from being a commodity that could be sold and bought, as the western woman. the woman in islam is as pearl in oyster shell.
Muslim women observe HIJAB (covering the head and the body) because Allah has told them to do so
"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed..." (Qur'an 33:59)
not man or husband
Other secondary reasons include the requirement for modesty in both men and women. Both will then be evaluated for intelligence and skills instead of looks and sexuality. An Iranian school girl is quoted as saying, "We want to stop men from treating us like sex objects, as they have always done. We want them to ignore our appearance and to be attentive to our personalities and mind. We want them to take us seriously and treat us as equals and not just chase us around for our bodies and physical looks."
debby1972
says...
9:51pm Fri 23 Jul 10
We travel to muslim countries such as Morocco and bare all on their beaches...yet you all go into a state of fear and panic as some women cover their faces? Shall we ban balaclavas in winter too?(and these willl be included in any ban along with helmets etc) Do you want to be stopped in freezing weather because your scarf is too far up your face? because the same rule will apply to us all-bear this in mind...
This is media hyped national hysteria- get a grip. And the closet racists are rearing their ugly heads- all over this page! Listen to yourselves! And yes it is racist to assume people are a certain way because of their religion or culture.....in case the definition had eluded some people on here...."all black people have good rhythm" "all muslims are terrorists" " all women that veil are oppressed" "All irish catholics are IRA terrorists". THINK about what you are saying and realise that yes you are being extremely bigoted....stop being so afraid of what you clearly do not understand!
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rainbowkisses says...
9:56am Sun 18 Jul 10