Speeding fines questionable after signs ‘stolen’ (From Bournemouth Echo)
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Speeding fines questionable after signs ‘stolen’
8:50am Monday 29th March 2010 in
DOZENS of motorists are set to escape speeding fines after it emerged some key road signs had gone missing in Poole.
The 30mph boards, which warn of a change of speed limit from 50mph, disappeared from Holes Bay Road, just before the Sterte Road traffic lights, last week.
However, the controversial “speed on green” cameras at the Sterte junction were still flashing drivers exceeding 30mph.
But with no indication for motorists as to the change in speed limit, experts said any tickets would be null and void.
Richard Bentley, an independent traffic signs and regulations consultant, said the absence of signs meant no driver could be convicted.
The Dorset Safety Camera Partnership, which enforces speeding fines, confirmed penalty notices could not be issued where “legally required speed limit signage” was not in place.
It is believed the signs went missing – presumed stolen – on Thursday and temporary 30mph signs were only put up on Saturday afternoon.
It means there was a period of up to 48 hours when motorists may have been flashed by the camera without any signs being in place. Anyone issued with a ticket from this period is therefore likely to have a strong case for having the fine scratched.
Poole council, which is responsible for the upkeep of road signs, said permanent replacement signs were in place by Monday.
Driver David Mallinson said he noticed last week’s lack of signage having previously been a victim of the Holes Bay cameras.
“Everyone was being caught when the last visible sign said 50mph,” he said.
Johnny Stephens, head of fixed penalties for the DSCP, condemned the alleged theft of the 30mph signs.
He said: “The theft of speed limit signage is wholly irresponsible behaviour that could endanger people’s lives.”
Dorset Police have launched an investigation into the signs’ disappearance.
Comments(43)
drphil
says...
1:06pm Mon 29 Mar 10
Dr Phil
rayc
says...
1:08pm Mon 29 Mar 10
benjamin
says...
1:15pm Mon 29 Mar 10
"A period of up to 48 hours without any signs in place"
I am guessing that there were no accidents during this 48 hours. So is there any need for 'speed on green' cameras?
The answer is that cameras are only there to make money!
Martin Kitcher
says...
1:41pm Mon 29 Mar 10
What strange times.
Huey
says...
2:15pm Mon 29 Mar 10
I wonder if the signs were removed by someone who had been caught speeding, and knew that no sign would equal no fine...
a.g.o.g.
says...
4:42pm Mon 29 Mar 10
McVICAR
says...
4:44pm Mon 29 Mar 10
No wonder there are so many accidents, no body is looking where their going anymore, their all looking for speed cameras and new road signs.
Jasonpenn
says...
5:11pm Mon 29 Mar 10
What a pratt.
Tictock
says...
5:36pm Mon 29 Mar 10
Serious crime afoot in Poole, perhaps it twaz a seagull or two?
Martin Kitcher
says...
6:17pm Mon 29 Mar 10
twobigdogs
says...
7:18pm Mon 29 Mar 10
dancingdog
says...
7:48pm Mon 29 Mar 10
In Absentia
says...
7:56pm Mon 29 Mar 10
drphil wrote:Nonsense! Using your logic, all drivers can go and get paralytic and take to the roads and as long as they don't cause any accidents it's ok. Why should other drivers have to play Russian roulette with the behaviour of idiots who ignore the law?
We have been so brainwashed into thinking that any new law that curtails our liberty is a good thing. It is not. This government has created 33 new crimes a month - many thousands of new crimes which have no victims at all. Who is the victim when someone speeds? No one. Who is the victim when I use a mobile phone? No one. Ah you say, but you might crash. Yes, any one might crash - but you shouldn't turn people into criminals for what they might do, only for what they have done. Going over a recommended speed should no more be a crime here than it is on the Autobahn in Germany. We have confused driving fast with driving unsafely. That is simply an error of logic. You can drive fast and you can drive safely. Let's not penalize the first because we have confused it with the second.
Dr Phil
There has to be an element of reducing risk in law.
madgeman
says...
9:03pm Mon 29 Mar 10
dancingdog wrote:I've never seen Mr Plod put a speed sign up, not unless he's moonlighting for the Council.
I don't think temporary 30mph speed limit signs are legal either Mr Plod. You have to erect proper fixed ones first according to the Statute Book!
dorsetspeed
says...
9:10pm Mon 29 Mar 10
The introduction of the Speed on Green at Holes bay was a disaster for public relations and the road safety cause, everyone sees it as “money grabbing”, no one sees it as an operation to promote safety.
It is truly worrying that those in control are so completely out of touch. We urgently need a replacement organisation to the DSCP, or at the least, a replacement team with honest objectives.
drphil
says...
9:10pm Mon 29 Mar 10
In Absentia wrote:In Absentia, you don't use the law to reduce risk. There are other ways of doing that. The law carries the full power of the state behind it. It can deprive a man of his good, his liberty and even his life. It is not a risk management tool, even though an authoritarian state may want to use it that way.
drphil wrote:Nonsense! Using your logic, all drivers can go and get paralytic and take to the roads and as long as they don't cause any accidents it's ok. Why should other drivers have to play Russian roulette with the behaviour of idiots who ignore the law?
We have been so brainwashed into thinking that any new law that curtails our liberty is a good thing. It is not. This government has created 33 new crimes a month - many thousands of new crimes which have no victims at all. Who is the victim when someone speeds? No one. Who is the victim when I use a mobile phone? No one. Ah you say, but you might crash. Yes, any one might crash - but you shouldn't turn people into criminals for what they might do, only for what they have done. Going over a recommended speed should no more be a crime here than it is on the Autobahn in Germany. We have confused driving fast with driving unsafely. That is simply an error of logic. You can drive fast and you can drive safely. Let's not penalize the first because we have confused it with the second.
Dr Phil
There has to be an element of reducing risk in law.
Laws should not restrict peoples liberty unless you are harming someone. That was the tenor of John Stuart Mills great idea which has governed our freedoms in the western world for the last 200 years. It is only recently we have moved into the world of the nanny state and the big brother who controls our lives.
Dr Phil
techman2
says...
10:54pm Mon 29 Mar 10
pd7
says...
7:42am Tue 30 Mar 10
"Going over a recommended speed should no more be a crime here than it is on the Autobahn in Germany"
Problem is that most of the UK drivers dont have a clue how to drive at speeds greater than 30 mph.
Keep to the right , giving way tailgate etc etc . Fix these lower the accidents and maybe they ( gvmt ) will leave the limits alone.
Rossi 27
says...
9:19am Tue 30 Mar 10
twobigdogs wrote:You obviously don't use this section very often otherwise you would know that not only is it approaching a junction,and 2 pedestrian crossings but the lanes also split into 5 sections approaching Poole. It is not unusual for people to change lanes quickly without using mirrors or indicators (a new and increasing British drivers disease)causing heavy braking and avoidance measures.The road is also used by a lot of continental traffic including heavy lorries. I had witnessed numerous bumps and close shaves through this section which has improved vastly since the limit and cameras were set up. If you have problems dealing with speed limits and cameras I suggest you join the little boy racers who spend there evenings racing around the car parks near McDonalds, get your kicks that way.
He said: “The theft of speed limit signage is wholly irresponsible behaviour that could endanger people’s lives.” ............How can it endanger lives by travelling at 50mph instead of 30mph on that road?Its a dual carriageway for gods sake!
In Absentia
says...
12:23pm Tue 30 Mar 10
Sorry, but you're essentially proposing anarchy. In 2010, with road users exceeding the limits of the infrastructure, then risk has got to be factored in, whether libertarians like it or not.
Norman Mead
says...
2:38pm Tue 30 Mar 10
And are you the same guy who runs the dorsetspeed.org website? If so, I notice that you still haven't amended the glaring inaccuracy on the section that explains why you 'turned… from having full respect for the law, to having very little respect': yes, the A348 Ringwood Road near Bear Cross is a dual carriageway with a 40mph limit; what you neglect to mention (or were you travelling too fast?) is that it also has two ground-level pedestrian crossings, hence the speed limit.
drphil
says...
2:59pm Tue 30 Mar 10
In Absentia wrote:In absentia, Anarchy is a state without any law. I am not advocating that. I am simply holding the line that John Stuart Mill proclaimed and which has protected out liberties for over a hundred years, namely that the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.
Dr Phil
Sorry, but you're essentially proposing anarchy. In 2010, with road users exceeding the limits of the infrastructure, then risk has got to be factored in, whether libertarians like it or not.
Acting for his own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do things simply because it will be better for him or it will make him safer or because in the opinion of others, it would be wiser.
Going down that road is not anarchy but tyranny.
Dr Phil
dorsetspeed
says...
5:18pm Tue 30 Mar 10
As far as the A348 is concerned, ped crossings make it safer for peds, not more dangerous. Drivers need to be looking for peds who might be thinking about crossing the road at any position on any road, and constantly adjusting their speed according to the dynamic risk factors, not concentrating on their speedo. There are plenty of roads with 50 or higher limits where drivers need to ne prepared for peds who might cross.
Norman Mead
says...
11:39am Wed 31 Mar 10
dorsetspeed wrote:But as far as I can gather, pedestrian crossings cannot be placed on roads with a speed limit of 50mph or more, therefore there has to be a 40mph on this stretch of the A348.
Norman Mead, yes it might be difficult to cross at PC World, exactly the point I'm making, therefore if any junction needs a lower limit and enforcement, it's this one. However, even despite this, it's not a problem area in terms of accident counts.
As far as the A348 is concerned, ped crossings make it safer for peds, not more dangerous. Drivers need to be looking for peds who might be thinking about crossing the road at any position on any road, and constantly adjusting their speed according to the dynamic risk factors, not concentrating on their speedo. There are plenty of roads with 50 or higher limits where drivers need to ne prepared for peds who might cross.
dorsetspeed
says...
1:06pm Wed 31 Mar 10
"Where a signal-controlled crossing is sited on a road where the speed limit or 85
percentile speed on any approach is 50 m.p.h. or greater, advance warning signs to diagram
543, Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions l994(4) should always be used."
Norman Mead
says...
8:24pm Thu 1 Apr 10
dorsetspeed
says...
1:05pm Fri 2 Apr 10
Norman Mead
says...
1:35pm Fri 2 Apr 10
dorsetspeed
says...
3:33pm Fri 2 Apr 10
Because an entire lucrative industry has been built around speed in a completely disproportionate way huge efforts are made to exaggerate the speeding problem and some fall for it. This is the dismal overall situation I am trying to help correct.
I did complain about this limit. The response did not mention safety, ped crossings, accidents or anything else that might work as a proper justification. Only that the “rules for rural roads are different to the rules for non-rural roads”, in other words, the limit probably came out of a computer program written by some nerd somewhere who’s never seen the road.
Norman Mead
says...
3:49pm Fri 2 Apr 10
dorsetspeed
says...
5:09pm Fri 2 Apr 10
Norman Mead
says...
5:26pm Fri 2 Apr 10
dorsetspeed
says...
6:05pm Fri 2 Apr 10
nbupton
says...
11:59am Sat 3 Apr 10
dorsetspeed
says...
2:42pm Sat 3 Apr 10
nbupton
says...
4:59pm Sat 3 Apr 10
I just want to know on what basis you make your claims about what works and what doesn't in terms of speed limts and policing - you produce statements as if you are an expert in the field but I expect you're just repeating anectdotal and unscientific hearsay from googling the topic and reading anti-camera websites.
dorsetspeed
says...
5:51pm Sat 3 Apr 10
My views are based purely on my own observations, but widely shared with the majority of the public, as you mention, as seen on many forums and articles. I am a scientist but you simply don't need science or expertese to realise that driving standards are abysmal and this has resulted (not surprisingly) from bad road safety policy and methods.
But please, if there is anything you don't agree with, please do mention it, as it seems you're just criticising me but without giving any reason.
Rally
says...
1:31pm Sun 4 Apr 10
Dorsetspeed, actually we do need science here, with the proviso that it needs to be one dealing with physics rather than, say, marine biology.
According to your above argument, driving standards must have been much higher before the introduction of speed limits, road signs, Highway Code et al; whereas the historical fact is that road accidents were proportionately higher before the introduction of speed limits, etc.
One possible solution to the current problem/s is to make all drivers pass an advanced driving test (such as the ones carried out by the IAM).
Unfortunately, the vast majority of today’s drivers would fail the basic driving test, let alone an advanced one, so this solution would probably create more problems than it resolved.
Mind you, a 90+ percent cut in everyday road traffic does have a certain appeal … reduced pollution … less noise … fewer accidents … higher speed limits … :)
dorsetspeed
says...
3:04pm Sun 4 Apr 10
a.g.o.g.
says...
11:40pm Sun 4 Apr 10
Rally
says...
1:13am Mon 5 Apr 10
a.g.o.g. wrote:Hello a.g.o.g.,
Obviously neither Dorsetspeed nor Rally were around when we managed to kill around twice as many people on the roads with less than half the number of vehicles. We have improved considerably whilst most other comparable Countries have not.
Well, I certainly wasn't around back then (I didn't emerge into the world until early 1949) but I do know a little bit about motoring history and the fact that things were proportionately far, far worse accident-wise before the introduction of speed limits, the Highway Code, etc.
And as you rightly point out, standards of driving in Britain are generally better than in many other countries - which is a rather unnerving thought for anybody thinking of a motoring holiday in, say, Italy ... :)
Insight
says...
6:36pm Sat 10 Apr 10
So, the latest international past time is stealing road signs to upset the speed camera people. Perhaps we should station a real police officer at each road sign to protect the investment, or would that make the whole thing look a bit silly?
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Upkeep says...
9:58am Mon 29 Mar 10
No stone will be left unturned there then and no doubt the culprit will be caught within days.