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7:00pm Wednesday 23rd December 2009 in
A CAMPAIGN is underway to end the traditional practice of starting council meetings with a prayer.
The tradition – still carried out in many Town Halls – is under fire from the National Secular Society, which says it is out of date and has even put some people off becoming candidates at elections.
“Non-believers and those of other religions are put in the embarrassing position of wondering whether to participate or pointedly not participate,” the society says. “It is intolerable that elected representatives should be put through this in carrying out their duty. A typical reaction to their protests is that they are told they can leave the chamber during prayers.”
Liberal Democrat Cllr Roger West, a member of Dorset Humanists, suggested ending council prayers when he was first elected to Bournemouth council in 1999 but received little support.
He said: “I still do not think the council chamber is the place to have prayers. I think that it should be enough for the mayor just to call for a few minutes’ silence where we can give time to our innermost thoughts.
“Praying as such can be divisive and in some cases would look like hypocrisy. Why pray in the council chamber if we don’t go to a church or believe?”
David Warden, chair of Dorset Humanists, said: “I think it seems very strange when councillors are signed up to diversity that they still practice what seems to be a rather archaic opening to their meetings. It’s specifically Christian in what should be a secular context.” But former Bournemouth mayor Cllr Bob Chapman said: “I think it would be sad to do away with another tradition. Bearing in mind we’re basically a Christian country, I think we need a few prayers to start most of our meetings.”
Christchurch councillor David Jones, who trained as a lay preacher, said: “I think it very appropriate that we start each full council meeting with a prayer. We ask for guidance in the decisions we take for the common good of the people of Christchurch, and it is sobering to be reminded that we answer to a higher authority.
“There is no requirement for an atheist to be present – anyone can choose to come into council after the prayers.
“But I would point out that militant secularism itself is a faith, and while the majority of people in this country claim to be Christian of one sort or another it would be just as wrong to impose secularism on them as it would be to impose any other faith.”
Poole’s mayor, the United Reformed Church clergyman the Rev Charles Meachin, said Britain was a Christian country, with the Queen as defender of the faith. Schools had to teach religious studies and hold a daily act of worship. He said prayers at council meetings were a tradition upheld since the 16th century and he did not expect they would be stopped.
Comments(32)
PaulaJ
says...
7:40pm Wed 23 Dec 09
Wormsnakes
says...
7:58pm Wed 23 Dec 09
inyerpocket
says...
8:13pm Wed 23 Dec 09
dribble
says...
8:26pm Wed 23 Dec 09
colin 50
says...
8:55pm Wed 23 Dec 09
Very Old Man
says...
9:18pm Wed 23 Dec 09
dribble wrote:We are not a christian country.
I'm sorry, we are a Christian country. I see nothing wrong with prayers being said at the beginning of a Council meeting. OK, maybe those prayers need to be rethought and include more general, all religion embracing stuff. But the principle is right .. What would happen if the Council was made up of a majority of devout Muslims who wanted to stop a council meeting at a particular time in order to kneel and pray to Mecca? .. Would the same questions be asked or would it be allowed to happen without question simply because of the PC brigade?
silverking
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9:27pm Wed 23 Dec 09
Very Old Man
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9:37pm Wed 23 Dec 09
silverking wrote:So,only christians are peace-loving??
Mary had a little lamb, His fleece was white as snow. And everywhere that Mary went, the Lamb was sure to go. He followed her to school each day, Twasn't even in the rule. He made the children laugh and play, To have a lamb at school. And then the rules all changed one day, Illegal it became. To bring the Lamb of God to school. Or even speak His name. Every day got worse and worse, And days turned into years. Instead of hearing children laugh We heard gun shots and tears. What must we do to stop the crime That's in our schools today? Let's let the Lamb come back to school, And teach our kids to pray! First the schools, and now the council meetings. Jesus is the reason for the season and He loves you!
chris100
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10:06pm Wed 23 Dec 09
Wormsnakes
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10:59pm Wed 23 Dec 09
dribble wrote:I don't think we are a christian country because here we enjoy freedom of belief. I suppose in some ways we are a christian country, though. Senior CofE clergy are still ex officio members of the house of lords, our monarch is still the head of the church, churches are given tax breaks, and church schools are permitted to indoctrinate children into christianity at the taxpayers expense.
I'm sorry, we are a Christian country. I see nothing wrong with prayers being said at the beginning of a Council meeting. OK, maybe those prayers need to be rethought and include more general, all religion embracing stuff. But the principle is right .. What would happen if the Council was made up of a majority of devout Muslims who wanted to stop a council meeting at a particular time in order to kneel and pray to Mecca? .. Would the same questions be asked or would it be allowed to happen without question simply because of the PC brigade?
rainbowkisses
says...
11:24pm Wed 23 Dec 09
dribble wrote:The PC brigade would supply the prayer mats, at tax payers expense, and make it illegal for any Christians to speak during Muslims prayers. Of course Christians in this Country would have to supply their own mats, and the PC brigade would supply the matches for the Muslims to carry on burning our flag in the street, during Christian prayers. Don't you just love this Country?......... No doubt get this post deleted, wouldn't want to upset the Muslims now would we? After all, I'm only saying what millions are thinking. But this is Britain 2009, free speech is a thing of the past.
I'm sorry, we are a Christian country. I see nothing wrong with prayers being said at the beginning of a Council meeting. OK, maybe those prayers need to be rethought and include more general, all religion embracing stuff. But the principle is right .. What would happen if the Council was made up of a majority of devout Muslims who wanted to stop a council meeting at a particular time in order to kneel and pray to Mecca? .. Would the same questions be asked or would it be allowed to happen without question simply because of the PC brigade?
RegAlbertson
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11:42pm Wed 23 Dec 09
colin 50
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3:15am Thu 24 Dec 09
Wormsnakes wrote:your comment should read,We used to live in a democracy: now we live in fear,fear of offending the very people and there beliefs who have come from all corners of the globe to seek refuge in this country,these and the pc brigade who say we should not wear crosses etc in our workplaces or school as it may offend.i am ENGLISH AND A CHRISTIAN AND PROUD OF IT i do not try to force my religous beliefs on others and i respect theirs and i would expect the same from them. god help us if your views of where and when religion should be allowed come into force,
dribble wrote: I'm sorry, we are a Christian country. I see nothing wrong with prayers being said at the beginning of a Council meeting. OK, maybe those prayers need to be rethought and include more general, all religion embracing stuff. But the principle is right .. What would happen if the Council was made up of a majority of devout Muslims who wanted to stop a council meeting at a particular time in order to kneel and pray to Mecca? .. Would the same questions be asked or would it be allowed to happen without question simply because of the PC brigade?I don't think we are a christian country because here we enjoy freedom of belief. I suppose in some ways we are a christian country, though. Senior CofE clergy are still ex officio members of the house of lords, our monarch is still the head of the church, churches are given tax breaks, and church schools are permitted to indoctrinate children into christianity at the taxpayers expense. Exactly the same logic would apply if the religion was islam. Muslims, quite properly, enjoy the freedom to follow their religion in this country, but all religions should be banished from public bodies where they have no place. The PC brigade doesn't enter into it. We live in a democracy, not a theocracy! Why are YOU trying to force your beliefs on society, rather than building a personal and spiritual relationship with god? That is what religion is supposed to be about, isn't it? If you want to be a christian, go and be one, and let others explore their own belief or disbelief in god without being made to say their prayers!
gd58
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3:33am Thu 24 Dec 09
gd58
says...
3:53am Thu 24 Dec 09
colin 50 wrote:Are you implying that ALL religions should have free reign in society including the workplace or just Christianity?
Wormsnakes wrote:your comment should read,We used to live in a democracy: now we live in fear,fear of offending the very people and there beliefs who have come from all corners of the globe to seek refuge in this country,these and the pc brigade who say we should not wear crosses etc in our workplaces or school as it may offend.i am ENGLISH AND A CHRISTIAN AND PROUD OF IT i do not try to force my religous beliefs on others and i respect theirs and i would expect the same from them. god help us if your views of where and when religion should be allowed come into force,
dribble wrote: I'm sorry, we are a Christian country. I see nothing wrong with prayers being said at the beginning of a Council meeting. OK, maybe those prayers need to be rethought and include more general, all religion embracing stuff. But the principle is right .. What would happen if the Council was made up of a majority of devout Muslims who wanted to stop a council meeting at a particular time in order to kneel and pray to Mecca? .. Would the same questions be asked or would it be allowed to happen without question simply because of the PC brigade?I don't think we are a christian country because here we enjoy freedom of belief. I suppose in some ways we are a christian country, though. Senior CofE clergy are still ex officio members of the house of lords, our monarch is still the head of the church, churches are given tax breaks, and church schools are permitted to indoctrinate children into christianity at the taxpayers expense. Exactly the same logic would apply if the religion was islam. Muslims, quite properly, enjoy the freedom to follow their religion in this country, but all religions should be banished from public bodies where they have no place. The PC brigade doesn't enter into it. We live in a democracy, not a theocracy! Why are YOU trying to force your beliefs on society, rather than building a personal and spiritual relationship with god? That is what religion is supposed to be about, isn't it? If you want to be a christian, go and be one, and let others explore their own belief or disbelief in god without being made to say their prayers!
colin 50
says...
4:44am Thu 24 Dec 09
gd58 wrote:at the moment it seems that all religons except christianity is allowed, my only wish for the new year is that all other religions would respect our rights in OUR country.
colin 50 wrote:Are you implying that ALL religions should have free reign in society including the workplace or just Christianity?Wormsnakes wrote:your comment should read,We used to live in a democracy: now we live in fear,fear of offending the very people and there beliefs who have come from all corners of the globe to seek refuge in this country,these and the pc brigade who say we should not wear crosses etc in our workplaces or school as it may offend.i am ENGLISH AND A CHRISTIAN AND PROUD OF IT i do not try to force my religous beliefs on others and i respect theirs and i would expect the same from them. god help us if your views of where and when religion should be allowed come into force,dribble wrote: I'm sorry, we are a Christian country. I see nothing wrong with prayers being said at the beginning of a Council meeting. OK, maybe those prayers need to be rethought and include more general, all religion embracing stuff. But the principle is right .. What would happen if the Council was made up of a majority of devout Muslims who wanted to stop a council meeting at a particular time in order to kneel and pray to Mecca? .. Would the same questions be asked or would it be allowed to happen without question simply because of the PC brigade?I don't think we are a christian country because here we enjoy freedom of belief. I suppose in some ways we are a christian country, though. Senior CofE clergy are still ex officio members of the house of lords, our monarch is still the head of the church, churches are given tax breaks, and church schools are permitted to indoctrinate children into christianity at the taxpayers expense. Exactly the same logic would apply if the religion was islam. Muslims, quite properly, enjoy the freedom to follow their religion in this country, but all religions should be banished from public bodies where they have no place. The PC brigade doesn't enter into it. We live in a democracy, not a theocracy! Why are YOU trying to force your beliefs on society, rather than building a personal and spiritual relationship with god? That is what religion is supposed to be about, isn't it? If you want to be a christian, go and be one, and let others explore their own belief or disbelief in god without being made to say their prayers!
Hickery
says...
8:02am Thu 24 Dec 09
PokesdownMark
says...
8:15am Thu 24 Dec 09
Laurie H Marsh
says...
11:24am Thu 24 Dec 09
doubletop
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11:33am Thu 24 Dec 09
John T
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12:02pm Thu 24 Dec 09
gd58 wrote:I agree entirely....more Council double standards. It could be worse I suppose; the Council could be led before each session with sharing laptop experiences with their Great Leader, letting those who might not agree, absent themselves without pay!
What follows below is a pledge copied directly from the Bournemouth Council website regarding their Equality and Diversity Policy. "The purpose of the Equality & Diversity Policy is remove barriers to equal opportunities and to prevent any form of discrimination regardless of an individual’s ability, age, responsibility for children or other dependents, gender, disability, gender reassignment, marital status, political or religious belief or non belief, race, colour, national or ethnic origin, sexual orientation, trade union membership or activity, or work pattern." Surely using Christian prayers and inviting non-believers to leave chambers whilst prayers are said is a form of discrimination and under their policy should cease with immediate effect! I should imagine that the people of Christchurch would rather Cllr Jones and his colleagues use their wits, education and experience to make the correct decisions and not trust to divine inspiration.
gd58
says...
12:50pm Thu 24 Dec 09
Laurie H Marsh wrote:Questioning the validity of a sectarian practice within an institution that promulgates equality and diversity does not make us miserable people.
I take it that all you "naysayers" will be showing up for work on Friday?
Thought not!
May you all have a "happy holiday"(?).
Must be bloody miserable liviving with you lot!
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!
Wait until you are staring at death. An awful lot of you will suddenly "see the light"!
noel1
says...
12:56pm Thu 24 Dec 09
PokesdownMark
says...
1:55pm Thu 24 Dec 09
Laurie H Marsh wrote:Laurie, by the same logic I assume you do not enjoy bank holidays because you do not work in a bank?
I take it that all you "naysayers" will be showing up for work on Friday?
Thought not!
May you all have a "happy holiday"(?).
Must be bloody miserable liviving with you lot!
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!
Wait until you are staring at death. An awful lot of you will suddenly "see the light"!
Laurie H Marsh
says...
2:29pm Thu 24 Dec 09
Laurie H Marsh
says...
2:34pm Thu 24 Dec 09
PokesdownMark
says...
4:33pm Thu 24 Dec 09
mikey2gorgeous
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7:29pm Thu 24 Dec 09
rotcoddam
says...
3:59pm Sat 26 Dec 09
samsmith
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11:32am Sun 27 Dec 09
Laurie H Marsh
says...
1:47pm Sun 27 Dec 09
samsmith wrote:You are so right!
for what my thoughts are worth, I don't know at what point our country stopped being a christian country. . Anybody know? . If you want an idea of what a non-christian country that proclaims its secularism then I'd have thought France would be a good example. Not the UK. . God Saved the Queen? . Songs of Praise from the public broadcaster? . St Georges Day as our national day? (cf with Bastilles Day for example). . The Church of England. . The Church of England aiding the running of many schools around the country. . . I'm not saying that praying at the start of a meeting must be done - yes, it seems quite archaic really. However if these councillors cannot tolerate such a simple act (I often feel awkward when I am in situations where I have to pray, but just look to the floor, or look around the room wondering what i'll have for supper that night) then how will they tolerate all the different cultures and mannerisms of and displayed by all the people who elected them?
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inyerpocket says...
7:19pm Wed 23 Dec 09
Outdated an soon to be cut off from the freebies.