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Prayers at council meetings under fire


A CAMPAIGN is underway to end the traditional practice of starting council meetings with a prayer.

The tradition – still carried out in many Town Halls – is under fire from the National Secular Society, which says it is out of date and has even put some people off becoming candidates at elections.

“Non-believers and those of other religions are put in the embarrassing position of wondering whether to participate or pointedly not participate,” the society says. “It is intolerable that elected representatives should be put through this in carrying out their duty. A typical reaction to their protests is that they are told they can leave the chamber during prayers.”

Liberal Democrat Cllr Roger West, a member of Dorset Humanists, suggested ending council prayers when he was first elected to Bournemouth council in 1999 but received little support.

He said: “I still do not think the council chamber is the place to have prayers. I think that it should be enough for the mayor just to call for a few minutes’ silence where we can give time to our innermost thoughts.

“Praying as such can be divisive and in some cases would look like hypocrisy. Why pray in the council chamber if we don’t go to a church or believe?”

David Warden, chair of Dorset Humanists, said: “I think it seems very strange when councillors are signed up to diversity that they still practice what seems to be a rather archaic opening to their meetings. It’s specifically Christian in what should be a secular context.” But former Bournemouth mayor Cllr Bob Chapman said: “I think it would be sad to do away with another tradition. Bearing in mind we’re basically a Christian country, I think we need a few prayers to start most of our meetings.”

Christchurch councillor David Jones, who trained as a lay preacher, said: “I think it very appropriate that we start each full council meeting with a prayer. We ask for guidance in the decisions we take for the common good of the people of Christchurch, and it is sobering to be reminded that we answer to a higher authority.

“There is no requirement for an atheist to be present – anyone can choose to come into council after the prayers.

“But I would point out that militant secularism itself is a faith, and while the majority of people in this country claim to be Christian of one sort or another it would be just as wrong to impose secularism on them as it would be to impose any other faith.”

Poole’s mayor, the United Reformed Church clergyman the Rev Charles Meachin, said Britain was a Christian country, with the Queen as defender of the faith. Schools had to teach religious studies and hold a daily act of worship. He said prayers at council meetings were a tradition upheld since the 16th century and he did not expect they would be stopped.

Comments(32)

inyerpocket says...
7:19pm Wed 23 Dec 09

Does the council think the fact we have no faith in them has any possibility in a no faith vote? An ideal free gift for these guys may be an album fron Faith No More.

Outdated an soon to be cut off from the freebies.

PaulaJ says...
7:40pm Wed 23 Dec 09

I think it's quite useful to have a prayer at the start of council meetings. If councillors are happy to participate, thereby voluntarily "outing" themselves as superstitious idiots stuck in the dark ages, then so be it. Better to have it out in the open.

Wormsnakes says...
7:58pm Wed 23 Dec 09

Although I respect an individual's right to follow a particular religion, this overlap between religion and public office is plain wrong. Why should a councillor be expected to participate in christian prayer?
Secularism is obviously not a faith, it merely seeks to provide protection from militant sectarianism, especially when the sectarianism attempts to meld itself with the state apparatus.

inyerpocket says...
8:13pm Wed 23 Dec 09

I would have thought most the Council is praying to their own little Satan in the hope the Reef and its appalling cost and lack of beach huts sales stays out the press. How about an update on this echo. Beat Dispatches to the story

dribble says...
8:26pm Wed 23 Dec 09

I'm sorry, we are a Christian country. I see nothing wrong with prayers being said at the beginning of a Council meeting. OK, maybe those prayers need to be rethought and include more general, all religion embracing stuff. But the principle is right
..
What would happen if the Council was made up of a majority of devout Muslims who wanted to stop a council meeting at a particular time in order to kneel and pray to Mecca?
..
Would the same questions be asked or would it be allowed to happen without question simply because of the PC brigade?

colin 50 says...
8:55pm Wed 23 Dec 09

what do they want to start council meetings with? 1/2 an hour on the council leaders laptop?, maybe we should ask for the prayer mats to be removed from the chapel at bournemouth hospital ? lets be honest most of us should pray every time there is a council meeting, hoping they dont come up with any more great ideas for the benefit of the residents,and the coucillors need to pray for forgiveness from the residents for the mess they have made of running the town.

Very Old Man says...
9:18pm Wed 23 Dec 09

dribble wrote:
I'm sorry, we are a Christian country. I see nothing wrong with prayers being said at the beginning of a Council meeting. OK, maybe those prayers need to be rethought and include more general, all religion embracing stuff. But the principle is right .. What would happen if the Council was made up of a majority of devout Muslims who wanted to stop a council meeting at a particular time in order to kneel and pray to Mecca? .. Would the same questions be asked or would it be allowed to happen without question simply because of the PC brigade?
We are not a christian country.
We were a mainly christian country for a relatively short period of our history.
I should have thought that, as each persons' spiritual beliefs are pesonal to themselves, it would be more appropriate for those members who wish to do so to pray at home before going to their meetings.

silverking says...
9:27pm Wed 23 Dec 09

Mary had a little lamb,
His fleece was white as snow.
And everywhere that Mary went,
the Lamb was sure to go.
He followed her to school each day,
Twasn't even in the rule.
He made the children laugh and play,
To have a lamb at school.
And then the rules all changed one day,
Illegal it became.
To bring the Lamb of God to school.
Or even speak His name.
Every day got worse and worse,
And days turned into years.
Instead of hearing children laugh
We heard gun shots and tears.
What must we do to stop the crime
That's in our schools today?
Let's let the Lamb come back to school,
And teach our kids to pray!

First the schools, and now the council meetings.

Jesus is the reason for the season and He loves you!

Very Old Man says...
9:37pm Wed 23 Dec 09

silverking wrote:
Mary had a little lamb, His fleece was white as snow. And everywhere that Mary went, the Lamb was sure to go. He followed her to school each day, Twasn't even in the rule. He made the children laugh and play, To have a lamb at school. And then the rules all changed one day, Illegal it became. To bring the Lamb of God to school. Or even speak His name. Every day got worse and worse, And days turned into years. Instead of hearing children laugh We heard gun shots and tears. What must we do to stop the crime That's in our schools today? Let's let the Lamb come back to school, And teach our kids to pray! First the schools, and now the council meetings. Jesus is the reason for the season and He loves you!
So,only christians are peace-loving??

chris100 says...
10:06pm Wed 23 Dec 09

they pray that no one finds out how much expences they claim or how many backhanders they take

Wormsnakes says...
10:59pm Wed 23 Dec 09

dribble wrote:
I'm sorry, we are a Christian country. I see nothing wrong with prayers being said at the beginning of a Council meeting. OK, maybe those prayers need to be rethought and include more general, all religion embracing stuff. But the principle is right .. What would happen if the Council was made up of a majority of devout Muslims who wanted to stop a council meeting at a particular time in order to kneel and pray to Mecca? .. Would the same questions be asked or would it be allowed to happen without question simply because of the PC brigade?
I don't think we are a christian country because here we enjoy freedom of belief. I suppose in some ways we are a christian country, though. Senior CofE clergy are still ex officio members of the house of lords, our monarch is still the head of the church, churches are given tax breaks, and church schools are permitted to indoctrinate children into christianity at the taxpayers expense.
Exactly the same logic would apply if the religion was islam. Muslims, quite properly, enjoy the freedom to follow their religion in this country, but all religions should be banished from public bodies where they have no place. The PC brigade doesn't enter into it. We live in a democracy, not a theocracy! Why are YOU trying to force your beliefs on society, rather than building a personal and spiritual relationship with god? That is what religion is supposed to be about, isn't it? If you want to be a christian, go and be one, and let others explore their own belief or disbelief in god without being made to say their prayers!

rainbowkisses says...
11:24pm Wed 23 Dec 09

dribble wrote:
I'm sorry, we are a Christian country. I see nothing wrong with prayers being said at the beginning of a Council meeting. OK, maybe those prayers need to be rethought and include more general, all religion embracing stuff. But the principle is right .. What would happen if the Council was made up of a majority of devout Muslims who wanted to stop a council meeting at a particular time in order to kneel and pray to Mecca? .. Would the same questions be asked or would it be allowed to happen without question simply because of the PC brigade?
The PC brigade would supply the prayer mats, at tax payers expense, and make it illegal for any Christians to speak during Muslims prayers. Of course Christians in this Country would have to supply their own mats, and the PC brigade would supply the matches for the Muslims to carry on burning our flag in the street, during Christian prayers. Don't you just love this Country?......... No doubt get this post deleted, wouldn't want to upset the Muslims now would we? After all, I'm only saying what millions are thinking. But this is Britain 2009, free speech is a thing of the past.

RegAlbertson says...
11:42pm Wed 23 Dec 09

It should be the people of Bournemouth praying. In hope that our Councillors do something right for the town. How can they prayer at the beginning of a Council meeting, and then lie, falsify, everything they have said or done. Hypocrits spring to mind.

colin 50 says...
3:15am Thu 24 Dec 09

Wormsnakes wrote:
dribble wrote: I'm sorry, we are a Christian country. I see nothing wrong with prayers being said at the beginning of a Council meeting. OK, maybe those prayers need to be rethought and include more general, all religion embracing stuff. But the principle is right .. What would happen if the Council was made up of a majority of devout Muslims who wanted to stop a council meeting at a particular time in order to kneel and pray to Mecca? .. Would the same questions be asked or would it be allowed to happen without question simply because of the PC brigade?
I don't think we are a christian country because here we enjoy freedom of belief. I suppose in some ways we are a christian country, though. Senior CofE clergy are still ex officio members of the house of lords, our monarch is still the head of the church, churches are given tax breaks, and church schools are permitted to indoctrinate children into christianity at the taxpayers expense. Exactly the same logic would apply if the religion was islam. Muslims, quite properly, enjoy the freedom to follow their religion in this country, but all religions should be banished from public bodies where they have no place. The PC brigade doesn't enter into it. We live in a democracy, not a theocracy! Why are YOU trying to force your beliefs on society, rather than building a personal and spiritual relationship with god? That is what religion is supposed to be about, isn't it? If you want to be a christian, go and be one, and let others explore their own belief or disbelief in god without being made to say their prayers!
your comment should read,We used to live in a democracy: now we live in fear,fear of offending the very people and there beliefs who have come from all corners of the globe to seek refuge in this country,these and the pc brigade who say we should not wear crosses etc in our workplaces or school as it may offend.i am ENGLISH AND A CHRISTIAN AND PROUD OF IT i do not try to force my religous beliefs on others and i respect theirs and i would expect the same from them. god help us if your views of where and when religion should be allowed come into force,

gd58 says...
3:33am Thu 24 Dec 09

What follows below is a pledge copied directly from the Bournemouth Council website regarding their Equality and Diversity Policy.
"The purpose of the Equality & Diversity Policy is remove barriers to equal opportunities and to prevent any form of discrimination regardless of an individual’s ability, age, responsibility for children or other dependents, gender, disability, gender reassignment, marital status, political or religious belief or non belief, race, colour, national or ethnic origin, sexual orientation, trade union membership or activity, or work pattern."
Surely using Christian prayers and inviting non-believers to leave chambers whilst prayers are said is a form of discrimination and under their policy should cease with immediate effect!
I should imagine that the people of Christchurch would rather Cllr Jones and his colleagues use their wits, education and experience to make the correct decisions and not trust to divine inspiration.

gd58 says...
3:53am Thu 24 Dec 09

colin 50 wrote:
Wormsnakes wrote:
dribble wrote: I'm sorry, we are a Christian country. I see nothing wrong with prayers being said at the beginning of a Council meeting. OK, maybe those prayers need to be rethought and include more general, all religion embracing stuff. But the principle is right .. What would happen if the Council was made up of a majority of devout Muslims who wanted to stop a council meeting at a particular time in order to kneel and pray to Mecca? .. Would the same questions be asked or would it be allowed to happen without question simply because of the PC brigade?
I don't think we are a christian country because here we enjoy freedom of belief. I suppose in some ways we are a christian country, though. Senior CofE clergy are still ex officio members of the house of lords, our monarch is still the head of the church, churches are given tax breaks, and church schools are permitted to indoctrinate children into christianity at the taxpayers expense. Exactly the same logic would apply if the religion was islam. Muslims, quite properly, enjoy the freedom to follow their religion in this country, but all religions should be banished from public bodies where they have no place. The PC brigade doesn't enter into it. We live in a democracy, not a theocracy! Why are YOU trying to force your beliefs on society, rather than building a personal and spiritual relationship with god? That is what religion is supposed to be about, isn't it? If you want to be a christian, go and be one, and let others explore their own belief or disbelief in god without being made to say their prayers!
your comment should read,We used to live in a democracy: now we live in fear,fear of offending the very people and there beliefs who have come from all corners of the globe to seek refuge in this country,these and the pc brigade who say we should not wear crosses etc in our workplaces or school as it may offend.i am ENGLISH AND A CHRISTIAN AND PROUD OF IT i do not try to force my religous beliefs on others and i respect theirs and i would expect the same from them. god help us if your views of where and when religion should be allowed come into force,
Are you implying that ALL religions should have free reign in society including the workplace or just Christianity?

colin 50 says...
4:44am Thu 24 Dec 09

gd58 wrote:
colin 50 wrote:
Wormsnakes wrote:
dribble wrote: I'm sorry, we are a Christian country. I see nothing wrong with prayers being said at the beginning of a Council meeting. OK, maybe those prayers need to be rethought and include more general, all religion embracing stuff. But the principle is right .. What would happen if the Council was made up of a majority of devout Muslims who wanted to stop a council meeting at a particular time in order to kneel and pray to Mecca? .. Would the same questions be asked or would it be allowed to happen without question simply because of the PC brigade?
I don't think we are a christian country because here we enjoy freedom of belief. I suppose in some ways we are a christian country, though. Senior CofE clergy are still ex officio members of the house of lords, our monarch is still the head of the church, churches are given tax breaks, and church schools are permitted to indoctrinate children into christianity at the taxpayers expense. Exactly the same logic would apply if the religion was islam. Muslims, quite properly, enjoy the freedom to follow their religion in this country, but all religions should be banished from public bodies where they have no place. The PC brigade doesn't enter into it. We live in a democracy, not a theocracy! Why are YOU trying to force your beliefs on society, rather than building a personal and spiritual relationship with god? That is what religion is supposed to be about, isn't it? If you want to be a christian, go and be one, and let others explore their own belief or disbelief in god without being made to say their prayers!
your comment should read,We used to live in a democracy: now we live in fear,fear of offending the very people and there beliefs who have come from all corners of the globe to seek refuge in this country,these and the pc brigade who say we should not wear crosses etc in our workplaces or school as it may offend.i am ENGLISH AND A CHRISTIAN AND PROUD OF IT i do not try to force my religous beliefs on others and i respect theirs and i would expect the same from them. god help us if your views of where and when religion should be allowed come into force,
Are you implying that ALL religions should have free reign in society including the workplace or just Christianity?
at the moment it seems that all religons except christianity is allowed, my only wish for the new year is that all other religions would respect our rights in OUR country.

Hickery says...
8:02am Thu 24 Dec 09

If an employee of the council tried to begin each day in their office by leading the room in prayer, and invited those who did not wish to partake to leave the room, they'd be disciplined. And if they persisted, they'd eventually be dismissed for misconduct. No doubt the rules are different for Councillors!

PokesdownMark says...
8:15am Thu 24 Dec 09

Ah there it is again! The term Militant Secularist. What a joke.
Its people who think they know what god wants that are militant, imposing and strident. It is very interesting that faith heads take those same negatives attributes and try to stick them onto non-believers. Its like they are saying: see! they are as bad as us!

Laurie H Marsh says...
11:24am Thu 24 Dec 09

I take it that all you "naysayers" will be showing up for work on Friday?
Thought not!
May you all have a "happy holiday"(?).
Must be bloody miserable liviving with you lot!
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!
Wait until you are staring at death. An awful lot of you will suddenly "see the light"!

doubletop says...
11:33am Thu 24 Dec 09

If these people want to pray then go to a church or pray before going to work, Taking up valuable time with this nonsense when there are more pressing issues is just a waste.
What will it be next, lots of time taken up for all the other nationalities employed by the council to pray so that there will be no time for any issues to be adressed, what about the staff who are not religious, why should they have to endure this archaic nonsense
I am in no way religious, i believe that its all ancient nonsense but everybody to their own, if they want to waste time in this pleasure which should be relegated to the history books then so be it, the difference is i dont try to make people disbelieve so why should people like me have this sort of thing rammed down our throats at every meeting.
Mind you after saying all this i feel that most of the councils in this country should perhaps pray, they all need some sort of miracle after the mistakes they have made.
More power to the atheist.

John T says...
12:02pm Thu 24 Dec 09

gd58 wrote:
What follows below is a pledge copied directly from the Bournemouth Council website regarding their Equality and Diversity Policy. "The purpose of the Equality & Diversity Policy is remove barriers to equal opportunities and to prevent any form of discrimination regardless of an individual’s ability, age, responsibility for children or other dependents, gender, disability, gender reassignment, marital status, political or religious belief or non belief, race, colour, national or ethnic origin, sexual orientation, trade union membership or activity, or work pattern." Surely using Christian prayers and inviting non-believers to leave chambers whilst prayers are said is a form of discrimination and under their policy should cease with immediate effect! I should imagine that the people of Christchurch would rather Cllr Jones and his colleagues use their wits, education and experience to make the correct decisions and not trust to divine inspiration.
I agree entirely....more Council double standards. It could be worse I suppose; the Council could be led before each session with sharing laptop experiences with their Great Leader, letting those who might not agree, absent themselves without pay!

gd58 says...
12:50pm Thu 24 Dec 09

Laurie H Marsh wrote:
I take it that all you "naysayers" will be showing up for work on Friday?
Thought not!
May you all have a "happy holiday"(?).
Must be bloody miserable liviving with you lot!
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!
Wait until you are staring at death. An awful lot of you will suddenly "see the light"!
Questioning the validity of a sectarian practice within an institution that promulgates equality and diversity does not make us miserable people.
We feel that it is no longer appropriate and should be practised in private or within the correct setting.
This particular "naysayer" will be reporting for work on friday, after spending Christmas afternoon with my family.

noel1 says...
12:56pm Thu 24 Dec 09

Hmmm ......... lots of people say democracy not theocracy.

But wasn't it Oliver Cromwell a radical Puritan Christian who established the superiority of the democratically elected Parliament over a King who thought he was a little god? Sounds like Christianity and democracy going hand in hand to me.

We are the country we are with all our freedoms, including the right of secularist to make suggestions like banning prayers, because of our Christian heritage.

Religion is about why you do things and politics is the how.

And if you actually asked a Muslim or a Hindu, etc if they were happy to start with Christian prayers they would answer yes as they understand what all religions share in common.

I am a Christian and at a previous job my best friend was a Muslim, because we had more in common than either had we our colleagues who professed no faith.

PokesdownMark says...
1:55pm Thu 24 Dec 09

Laurie H Marsh wrote:
I take it that all you "naysayers" will be showing up for work on Friday?
Thought not!
May you all have a "happy holiday"(?).
Must be bloody miserable liviving with you lot!
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!
Wait until you are staring at death. An awful lot of you will suddenly "see the light"!
Laurie, by the same logic I assume you do not enjoy bank holidays because you do not work in a bank?
Of course you might work in a bank in which case I'm making no sense at all! :-)

Laurie H Marsh says...
2:29pm Thu 24 Dec 09

Most holidays are a reflection of christian values. (Christmas, Easter etc.).
It seems that everyone is complaining about the loss of the "British" way of life and yet are doing their utmost to destroy the very thing that makes the British, British!
When I went to school religion was a compulsory subject.
Fine.
So was maths, english, history, geography etc.
That, with my upbringing made me what I am!
I am not a muslim, or a hindu and that is o.k. too.
I went on a tour of the world, I met my wife and settled in Aus.
At no stage did I try to make Australia part of where I was brought up.
If I had I would have been told to get lost!
Why is it that the country that I have left has allowed this very thing to happen?
Reading the comments on this site leaves me to believe that the people of my birth cannot wait to throw away what little self-pride that they have left!
This is about a lot more than some bloke in a stiff collar saying "thou shalt not"!

Laurie H Marsh says...
2:34pm Thu 24 Dec 09

Oh yeah,
Merry Christmas (it aint the same at 30 degrees)!

PokesdownMark says...
4:33pm Thu 24 Dec 09

I think I'd like some of those 30 degrees though Laurie!

mikey2gorgeous says...
7:29pm Thu 24 Dec 09

Doesn't this just boil down to the fact that the Council are a management committee and there's no sensible reason for them to devote time to religious practices.
.
It wouldn't happen in a business, it shouldn't happen in the council.

rotcoddam says...
3:59pm Sat 26 Dec 09

The question should be not about having prayers at the start of meetings but whether any significant number of these councillors praying are actually practising christians. I very much doubt many of them ever go to church other than weddings and such.So why start a meeting by lying....

samsmith says...
11:32am Sun 27 Dec 09

for what my thoughts are worth, I don't know at what point our country stopped being a christian country.
.
Anybody know?
.
If you want an idea of what a non-christian country that proclaims its secularism then I'd have thought France would be a good example. Not the UK.
.
God Saved the Queen?
.
Songs of Praise from the public broadcaster?
.
St Georges Day as our national day? (cf with Bastilles Day for example).
.
The Church of England.
.
The Church of England aiding the running of many schools around the country.
.
.
I'm not saying that praying at the start of a meeting must be done - yes, it seems quite archaic really. However if these councillors cannot tolerate such a simple act (I often feel awkward when I am in situations where I have to pray, but just look to the floor, or look around the room wondering what i'll have for supper that night) then how will they tolerate all the different cultures and mannerisms of and displayed by all the people who elected them?

Laurie H Marsh says...
1:47pm Sun 27 Dec 09

samsmith wrote:
for what my thoughts are worth, I don't know at what point our country stopped being a christian country. . Anybody know? . If you want an idea of what a non-christian country that proclaims its secularism then I'd have thought France would be a good example. Not the UK. . God Saved the Queen? . Songs of Praise from the public broadcaster? . St Georges Day as our national day? (cf with Bastilles Day for example). . The Church of England. . The Church of England aiding the running of many schools around the country. . . I'm not saying that praying at the start of a meeting must be done - yes, it seems quite archaic really. However if these councillors cannot tolerate such a simple act (I often feel awkward when I am in situations where I have to pray, but just look to the floor, or look around the room wondering what i'll have for supper that night) then how will they tolerate all the different cultures and mannerisms of and displayed by all the people who elected them?
You are so right!
The word "erosion" comes to mind.
Like not using bad language in front of children, or a lady.
Of course nowadays the swearing is liable to eminate from the kids or women (notice that I didn't say ladies).
Or opening a door for a lady, (I did it a few years ago and was called a chauvanist pig)!
It is about simple things like not "cutting in" whilst driving.
The word "cosideration" has a new meaning, it now means "weakness".
"Tollerance" now means letting kids run riot if they feel like it.
Raising a family now means dumping your kids with some stranger to look after while you try and earn enough for your new t.v., car, holiday or whatever.
A few prayers from unscrupulous politicians really doesnt mean much but if you take a step back and look at the overall loss it is mind boggling!


HIGHER AUTHORITY: Cllr David Jones HIGHER AUTHORITY: Cllr David Jones

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