Biker suffers serious foot injury after crash at Wallisdown Road, Poole

Bournemouth Echo: Motorcyclist rushed to hospital after serious two-vehicle crash Motorcyclist rushed to hospital after serious two-vehicle crash

A MOTORCYCLIST was rushed to hospital after a serious two-vehicle crash on Wallisdown Road, Poole on Saturday afternoon.

PC Tim Brehmer from Dorset Police's traffic unit said the biker was taken to Poole Hospital with a serious foot injury and possibly pelvic and spinal injuries.

A spokesperson for Dorset Police later said the man's injuries were not considered life-threatening, but life-changing.

The crash at 5.20pm involved the motorbike and a green Mini BMW car.

A spokesperson for Dorset Police said it is believed the motorcyclist is 17-years-old.

The vehicles were travelling in the same direction from Poole towards Kinson.

No-one in the car was injured and the car was not damaged.

Police closed part of the road and set up diversions while they tackled the incident.

Two ambulances attended the collision.

Recovery was needed for the motorbike.

PC Brehmer said he had spoken to independent witnesses but appealed for anyone else with information about the crash to come forward.

Residents in Wallisdown Road said they heard a 'loud bang' before lots of sirens came down the road.

One neighbour said: "This road is so busy; there are so many accidents along here. I hope the motorcyclist is okay."

Comments (34)

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7:29pm Sat 28 Jun 14

crystal-coast says...

Let's hope it's not too serious and has a speedy recovery.
Let's hope it's not too serious and has a speedy recovery. crystal-coast
  • Score: 34

8:42pm Sat 28 Jun 14

Townee says...

Both going in the same direction????
Both going in the same direction???? Townee
  • Score: -25

9:16pm Sat 28 Jun 14

tbpoole says...

Townee wrote:
Both going in the same direction????
So? Quite easy for this to happen, for example car changes direction and clips bike passing on either side, or car stops suddenly and bike runs into its back.
[quote][p][bold]Townee[/bold] wrote: Both going in the same direction????[/p][/quote]So? Quite easy for this to happen, for example car changes direction and clips bike passing on either side, or car stops suddenly and bike runs into its back. tbpoole
  • Score: 25

9:46pm Sat 28 Jun 14

sprintervanman says...

tbpoole wrote:
Townee wrote:
Both going in the same direction????
So? Quite easy for this to happen, for example car changes direction and clips bike passing on either side, or car stops suddenly and bike runs into its back.
Can happen so quickly.One of my Driver's Daughters was badly injured on her scooter when she went up the back of a car.The driver it turned out had missed his turning and braked suddenly.The brake lights on his car were not working at the time it was found out by the investigators.
Speedy recovery Motorcycle Lad from one who also rides Motorcycles.
[quote][p][bold]tbpoole[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Townee[/bold] wrote: Both going in the same direction????[/p][/quote]So? Quite easy for this to happen, for example car changes direction and clips bike passing on either side, or car stops suddenly and bike runs into its back.[/p][/quote]Can happen so quickly.One of my Driver's Daughters was badly injured on her scooter when she went up the back of a car.The driver it turned out had missed his turning and braked suddenly.The brake lights on his car were not working at the time it was found out by the investigators. Speedy recovery Motorcycle Lad from one who also rides Motorcycles. sprintervanman
  • Score: 29

1:52am Sun 29 Jun 14

Ragwin says...

Yet more evidence why motorbikes should be completely banned.
Yet more evidence why motorbikes should be completely banned. Ragwin
  • Score: -140

2:33am Sun 29 Jun 14

shaunwww05 says...

banned? ... yeah ok its probably people with your attitude that knock people off...
banned? ... yeah ok its probably people with your attitude that knock people off... shaunwww05
  • Score: 85

2:35am Sun 29 Jun 14

shaunwww05 says...

hope the person is ok id would say buy some motorbike boots its worth it :)
hope the person is ok id would say buy some motorbike boots its worth it :) shaunwww05
  • Score: 34

9:02am Sun 29 Jun 14

mumtobe2013 says...

Why do people assume it's the cars fault?? Motorbikes or some who don't have brains on them weave in and out of people in moving traffic or on a standstill! Think bike think biker?? Do they think of us when they cut in front of you or weave around etc no!
Why do people assume it's the cars fault?? Motorbikes or some who don't have brains on them weave in and out of people in moving traffic or on a standstill! Think bike think biker?? Do they think of us when they cut in front of you or weave around etc no! mumtobe2013
  • Score: 28

9:12am Sun 29 Jun 14

PQBT01 says...

Ragwin wrote:
Yet more evidence why motorbikes should be completely banned.
Ragwin, did your mum know that you stayed up that late?
[quote][p][bold]Ragwin[/bold] wrote: Yet more evidence why motorbikes should be completely banned.[/p][/quote]Ragwin, did your mum know that you stayed up that late? PQBT01
  • Score: 21

10:43am Sun 29 Jun 14

mac340v8 says...

I'm not religious, but my thoughts are with the rider, especially if they're young, that that foot injury isn't lasting, and hope for them to make a full recovery. And as shaunwww05 says, boots are definitely worth it.
I'm not religious, but my thoughts are with the rider, especially if they're young, that that foot injury isn't lasting, and hope for them to make a full recovery. And as shaunwww05 says, boots are definitely worth it. mac340v8
  • Score: 19

10:57am Sun 29 Jun 14

boardsandphotos says...

mumtobe2013 wrote:
Why do people assume it's the cars fault?? Motorbikes or some who don't have brains on them weave in and out of people in moving traffic or on a standstill! Think bike think biker?? Do they think of us when they cut in front of you or weave around etc no!
Highway Code point 88.

Manoeuvring. (for Motorbikes) You should be aware of what is behind and to the sides before manoeuvring. Look behind you; use mirrors if they are fitted. When in traffic queues look out for pedestrians crossing between vehicles and vehicles emerging from junctions or changing lanes. Position yourself so that drivers in front can see you in their mirrors. Additionally, when filtering in slow-moving traffic, take care and keep your speed low.


Filtering is perfectly legal in slow or stopped traffic, as long as you check your mirrors regularly and you (the car driver) are following the car in front of you at a safe distance then there shouldn't be any issue should there?

If you intend to change direction put your indicators on before the manouvre, not during, as a cyclist I see this all to often, those behind you are not mind readers.

Hope the lad has a quick recovery!
[quote][p][bold]mumtobe2013[/bold] wrote: Why do people assume it's the cars fault?? Motorbikes or some who don't have brains on them weave in and out of people in moving traffic or on a standstill! Think bike think biker?? Do they think of us when they cut in front of you or weave around etc no![/p][/quote]Highway Code point 88. Manoeuvring. (for Motorbikes) You should be aware of what is behind and to the sides before manoeuvring. Look behind you; use mirrors if they are fitted. When in traffic queues look out for pedestrians crossing between vehicles and vehicles emerging from junctions or changing lanes. Position yourself so that drivers in front can see you in their mirrors. Additionally, when filtering in slow-moving traffic, take care and keep your speed low. Filtering is perfectly legal in slow or stopped traffic, as long as you check your mirrors regularly and you (the car driver) are following the car in front of you at a safe distance then there shouldn't be any issue should there? If you intend to change direction put your indicators on before the manouvre, not during, as a cyclist I see this all to often, those behind you are not mind readers. Hope the lad has a quick recovery! boardsandphotos
  • Score: 33

12:02pm Sun 29 Jun 14

karenm83 says...

We drove past this incident last night before the emergency services arrived - I think there needs to be a mention to the people at the scene that were keeping the motorcyclist comfortable and calm, and those that were keeping the traffic moving around them slowly. My thoughts are with the motorcyclist, but I do think there were a lot of quick thinking people there that should be thanked. As for those saying ban motorcyclists - many pedestrians and drivers are involved in accidents but you wouldn't ban walking or driving. Be careful on the roads, and considerate of other road users but also know that sometimes accidents do happen regardless.
We drove past this incident last night before the emergency services arrived - I think there needs to be a mention to the people at the scene that were keeping the motorcyclist comfortable and calm, and those that were keeping the traffic moving around them slowly. My thoughts are with the motorcyclist, but I do think there were a lot of quick thinking people there that should be thanked. As for those saying ban motorcyclists - many pedestrians and drivers are involved in accidents but you wouldn't ban walking or driving. Be careful on the roads, and considerate of other road users but also know that sometimes accidents do happen regardless. karenm83
  • Score: 47

12:08pm Sun 29 Jun 14

Huey says...

Hardly suprising given the number of motorbike based accidents documented on these very pages and the way some bikers ride.....
Making a third lane, speeding past rows of cars, ignoring Highway Code and the speed limit...
Ok not all bikers do this but most of them I see flout any law going to get there that bit quicker and thus justify their vulnerable form of transport
Hardly suprising given the number of motorbike based accidents documented on these very pages and the way some bikers ride..... Making a third lane, speeding past rows of cars, ignoring Highway Code and the speed limit... Ok not all bikers do this but most of them I see flout any law going to get there that bit quicker and thus justify their vulnerable form of transport Huey
  • Score: 3

12:32pm Sun 29 Jun 14

karenm83 says...

Huey wrote:
Hardly suprising given the number of motorbike based accidents documented on these very pages and the way some bikers ride.....
Making a third lane, speeding past rows of cars, ignoring Highway Code and the speed limit...
Ok not all bikers do this but most of them I see flout any law going to get there that bit quicker and thus justify their vulnerable form of transport
I have more of an issue from other drivers on the roads than motorcyclists - overtaking, undertaking, cutting me up, tailgating, speeding, road rage. I had an accident where the other driver had been drinking. Perhaps if more people took responsibility when they got on the roads rather than just blaming someone else then there would be less problems.
[quote][p][bold]Huey[/bold] wrote: Hardly suprising given the number of motorbike based accidents documented on these very pages and the way some bikers ride..... Making a third lane, speeding past rows of cars, ignoring Highway Code and the speed limit... Ok not all bikers do this but most of them I see flout any law going to get there that bit quicker and thus justify their vulnerable form of transport[/p][/quote]I have more of an issue from other drivers on the roads than motorcyclists - overtaking, undertaking, cutting me up, tailgating, speeding, road rage. I had an accident where the other driver had been drinking. Perhaps if more people took responsibility when they got on the roads rather than just blaming someone else then there would be less problems. karenm83
  • Score: 16

3:50pm Sun 29 Jun 14

BIGTONE says...

It doesn't say how old the biker was. If it did the story would be easier to put into context.
It doesn't say how old the biker was. If it did the story would be easier to put into context. BIGTONE
  • Score: -21

4:28pm Sun 29 Jun 14

boardsandphotos says...

BIGTONE wrote:
It doesn't say how old the biker was. If it did the story would be easier to put into context.
That wouldn't give you context that would give you prejudice.
[quote][p][bold]BIGTONE[/bold] wrote: It doesn't say how old the biker was. If it did the story would be easier to put into context.[/p][/quote]That wouldn't give you context that would give you prejudice. boardsandphotos
  • Score: 29

5:51pm Sun 29 Jun 14

Sir Beachy Head says...

All generalizations are false, including this one.

Mark Twain.
All generalizations are false, including this one. Mark Twain. Sir Beachy Head
  • Score: 11

7:10pm Sun 29 Jun 14

DinosaurQueen83 says...

I am motorcyclists sister, he is a very lucky boy not to loose his foot, he has quite a badfoot injury and will likely lose a toe, but he is very much on the mend. Personally I agree with most of what has been said here, he is a flipping idiot for not being in protective kit which I know he has. I would also like to express my thanks to the people that were with him after the incident helping him. So thank you
I am motorcyclists sister, he is a very lucky boy not to loose his foot, he has quite a badfoot injury and will likely lose a toe, but he is very much on the mend. Personally I agree with most of what has been said here, he is a flipping idiot for not being in protective kit which I know he has. I would also like to express my thanks to the people that were with him after the incident helping him. So thank you DinosaurQueen83
  • Score: 57

7:37pm Sun 29 Jun 14

BIGTONE says...

boardsandphotos wrote:
BIGTONE wrote:
It doesn't say how old the biker was. If it did the story would be easier to put into context.
That wouldn't give you context that would give you prejudice.
Not at all.it would indicate wether it was a young retard being stupid as they all are or an older person being unfortunate in circumstances beyond his/ her control.
What's prejudice got to do with that?
You've lost the plot!
[quote][p][bold]boardsandphotos[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]BIGTONE[/bold] wrote: It doesn't say how old the biker was. If it did the story would be easier to put into context.[/p][/quote]That wouldn't give you context that would give you prejudice.[/p][/quote]Not at all.it would indicate wether it was a young retard being stupid as they all are or an older person being unfortunate in circumstances beyond his/ her control. What's prejudice got to do with that? You've lost the plot! BIGTONE
  • Score: -10

7:43pm Sun 29 Jun 14

alasdair1967 says...

There is quite a shocking picture doing the rounds on face book of a foot injury caused to a motorcyclists as a result of wearing the incorrect foot wear ie flip flops and yes I have recently witnessed this in the local area ,makes me cringe seeing the people on holiday who have obviously left there common sense at passport control riding around in resort in only there swim wear ,not knocking any bodies enjoyment just please wear the correct protective equipment as inconvenient as it is in this warm weather .
There is quite a shocking picture doing the rounds on face book of a foot injury caused to a motorcyclists as a result of wearing the incorrect foot wear ie flip flops and yes I have recently witnessed this in the local area ,makes me cringe seeing the people on holiday who have obviously left there common sense at passport control riding around in resort in only there swim wear ,not knocking any bodies enjoyment just please wear the correct protective equipment as inconvenient as it is in this warm weather . alasdair1967
  • Score: 0

8:05pm Sun 29 Jun 14

alasdair1967 says...

http://www.cyclespot
.com/forums/showthre
ad.php?t=42249

See for your self not for the faint hearted
http://www.cyclespot .com/forums/showthre ad.php?t=42249 See for your self not for the faint hearted alasdair1967
  • Score: -5

8:08pm Sun 29 Jun 14

alasdair1967 says...

alasdair1967 wrote:
http://www.cyclespot

.com/forums/showthre

ad.php?t=42249

See for your self not for the faint hearted
Maybe this ought to be used in safety campaigns and not just in closed forums it should be made public knowledge
[quote][p][bold]alasdair1967[/bold] wrote: http://www.cyclespot .com/forums/showthre ad.php?t=42249 See for your self not for the faint hearted[/p][/quote]Maybe this ought to be used in safety campaigns and not just in closed forums it should be made public knowledge alasdair1967
  • Score: 0

8:13pm Sun 29 Jun 14

Ragwin says...

shaunwww05 wrote:
banned? ... yeah ok its probably people with your attitude that knock people off...
Bit difficult, since I don't have a car.
[quote][p][bold]shaunwww05[/bold] wrote: banned? ... yeah ok its probably people with your attitude that knock people off...[/p][/quote]Bit difficult, since I don't have a car. Ragwin
  • Score: -9

8:21pm Sun 29 Jun 14

Ragwin says...

shaunwww05 wrote:
banned? ... yeah ok its probably people with your attitude that knock people off...
If motorbikes were a recent invention they would never be allowed on the roads in the first place.
[quote][p][bold]shaunwww05[/bold] wrote: banned? ... yeah ok its probably people with your attitude that knock people off...[/p][/quote]If motorbikes were a recent invention they would never be allowed on the roads in the first place. Ragwin
  • Score: -11

9:14pm Sun 29 Jun 14

Huey says...

Ragwin wrote:
shaunwww05 wrote:
banned? ... yeah ok its probably people with your attitude that knock people off...
If motorbikes were a recent invention they would never be allowed on the roads in the first place.
Neither would cars. Can you see it on dragons den - "Hi, my invention is something called a car, it runs on a highly flammable liquid, and will need stations selling this to be placed across the country, also it can kill occupants and bystanders if used incorrectly. Oh yes, forgot to say it isn't so great for the environment, plus it costs a fair bit to purchase and run, and will need a well maintained network of roads to work properly."
[quote][p][bold]Ragwin[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]shaunwww05[/bold] wrote: banned? ... yeah ok its probably people with your attitude that knock people off...[/p][/quote]If motorbikes were a recent invention they would never be allowed on the roads in the first place.[/p][/quote]Neither would cars. Can you see it on dragons den - "Hi, my invention is something called a car, it runs on a highly flammable liquid, and will need stations selling this to be placed across the country, also it can kill occupants and bystanders if used incorrectly. Oh yes, forgot to say it isn't so great for the environment, plus it costs a fair bit to purchase and run, and will need a well maintained network of roads to work properly." Huey
  • Score: 4

9:19pm Sun 29 Jun 14

Orangeboys says...

Ragwin wrote:
Yet more evidence why motorbikes should be completely banned.
shut up you fool!
[quote][p][bold]Ragwin[/bold] wrote: Yet more evidence why motorbikes should be completely banned.[/p][/quote]shut up you fool! Orangeboys
  • Score: 15

10:25pm Sun 29 Jun 14

mac340v8 says...

DinosaurQueen83 wrote:
I am motorcyclists sister, he is a very lucky boy not to loose his foot, he has quite a badfoot injury and will likely lose a toe, but he is very much on the mend. Personally I agree with most of what has been said here, he is a flipping idiot for not being in protective kit which I know he has. I would also like to express my thanks to the people that were with him after the incident helping him. So thank you
Nice to hear. I'm glad to hear he will make a good recovery.
[quote][p][bold]DinosaurQueen83[/bold] wrote: I am motorcyclists sister, he is a very lucky boy not to loose his foot, he has quite a badfoot injury and will likely lose a toe, but he is very much on the mend. Personally I agree with most of what has been said here, he is a flipping idiot for not being in protective kit which I know he has. I would also like to express my thanks to the people that were with him after the incident helping him. So thank you[/p][/quote]Nice to hear. I'm glad to hear he will make a good recovery. mac340v8
  • Score: 7

10:41pm Sun 29 Jun 14

pooleman63 says...

DinosaurQueen83 wrote:
I am motorcyclists sister, he is a very lucky boy not to loose his foot, he has quite a badfoot injury and will likely lose a toe, but he is very much on the mend. Personally I agree with most of what has been said here, he is a flipping idiot for not being in protective kit which I know he has. I would also like to express my thanks to the people that were with him after the incident helping him. So thank you
Hi I am in Poole Hospital on b3 ward due to a bike accident,I would like to wish your brother all the best and the best recovery possible. Please take the comments with a pinch of salt as I was ripped into on here and 9 months later turns out it was not my fault. So people please don't judge your comments can hurt. Good luck friend.
[quote][p][bold]DinosaurQueen83[/bold] wrote: I am motorcyclists sister, he is a very lucky boy not to loose his foot, he has quite a badfoot injury and will likely lose a toe, but he is very much on the mend. Personally I agree with most of what has been said here, he is a flipping idiot for not being in protective kit which I know he has. I would also like to express my thanks to the people that were with him after the incident helping him. So thank you[/p][/quote]Hi I am in Poole Hospital on b3 ward due to a bike accident,I would like to wish your brother all the best and the best recovery possible. Please take the comments with a pinch of salt as I was ripped into on here and 9 months later turns out it was not my fault. So people please don't judge your comments can hurt. Good luck friend. pooleman63
  • Score: 23

1:59am Mon 30 Jun 14

Silly-lily says...

Causing rows about who's at fault? Pinning blame and stereotyping motorcyclists as careless saying they ignore highway codes, making sarcastic comments and talking down to each other? Disgusting. This man could have lost his life and you think it's acceptable to comment in that manner? You are no more worthy or special if you drive a car rather than a motorcycle. Grow up.
Causing rows about who's at fault? Pinning blame and stereotyping motorcyclists as careless saying they ignore highway codes, making sarcastic comments and talking down to each other? Disgusting. This man could have lost his life and you think it's acceptable to comment in that manner? You are no more worthy or special if you drive a car rather than a motorcycle. Grow up. Silly-lily
  • Score: 1

8:23am Mon 30 Jun 14

BarrHumbug says...

This does highlight the importance of wearing the correct clothing, it doesn't have to be full leathers and motorcycle boots, you can get fashionable kevlar jeans, a CE approved padded textile jacket and motorcycle trainers that offer abrasion resistance and ankle support, so you don't have to go out looking like a power ranger.
Hope he makes a speedy recovery and importantly learns from the experience.
This does highlight the importance of wearing the correct clothing, it doesn't have to be full leathers and motorcycle boots, you can get fashionable kevlar jeans, a CE approved padded textile jacket and motorcycle trainers that offer abrasion resistance and ankle support, so you don't have to go out looking like a power ranger. Hope he makes a speedy recovery and importantly learns from the experience. BarrHumbug
  • Score: 8

11:39am Mon 30 Jun 14

suzigirl says...

mumtobe2013 wrote:
Why do people assume it's the cars fault?? Motorbikes or some who don't have brains on them weave in and out of people in moving traffic or on a standstill! Think bike think biker?? Do they think of us when they cut in front of you or weave around etc no!
It is not illegal to "filter" so wind your neck in! Most car drivers who use their mirrors correctly can see motorbikes filtering and pull over. It is illegal to hog the outside lane of a dual carriageway and not pull over and let someone pass like I witnessed a few times out on the motorbike yesterday.
[quote][p][bold]mumtobe2013[/bold] wrote: Why do people assume it's the cars fault?? Motorbikes or some who don't have brains on them weave in and out of people in moving traffic or on a standstill! Think bike think biker?? Do they think of us when they cut in front of you or weave around etc no![/p][/quote]It is not illegal to "filter" so wind your neck in! Most car drivers who use their mirrors correctly can see motorbikes filtering and pull over. It is illegal to hog the outside lane of a dual carriageway and not pull over and let someone pass like I witnessed a few times out on the motorbike yesterday. suzigirl
  • Score: 3

11:42am Mon 30 Jun 14

suzigirl says...

shaunwww05 wrote:
hope the person is ok id would say buy some motorbike boots its worth it :)
totally agree. Whilst out on our motorbikes it is unbelievable the number of other motorcylists we see riding powerful sports bikes wearing T shirts and shorts and no gloves. What idiots - tarmac and skin do not mix very well........
[quote][p][bold]shaunwww05[/bold] wrote: hope the person is ok id would say buy some motorbike boots its worth it :)[/p][/quote]totally agree. Whilst out on our motorbikes it is unbelievable the number of other motorcylists we see riding powerful sports bikes wearing T shirts and shorts and no gloves. What idiots - tarmac and skin do not mix very well........ suzigirl
  • Score: 1

5:16pm Mon 30 Jun 14

Ayles 10 says...

I don't think anyone should be commenting on who's fault it is without any facts, but what I do know is how important safety/protective clothing is on all motorbike riders having had several friends who have had accidents over the years. Boots, bikers' jackets and spinal protection is as important as a seat belt to a car driver/passenger. It frightens the life out of me when I see a biker with shorts and a pair of trainers on, it can be the difference between a broken bone & dented pride against severe tissue damage & or losing a limb. Huge get well wishes to the rider x
I don't think anyone should be commenting on who's fault it is without any facts, but what I do know is how important safety/protective clothing is on all motorbike riders having had several friends who have had accidents over the years. Boots, bikers' jackets and spinal protection is as important as a seat belt to a car driver/passenger. It frightens the life out of me when I see a biker with shorts and a pair of trainers on, it can be the difference between a broken bone & dented pride against severe tissue damage & or losing a limb. Huge get well wishes to the rider x Ayles 10
  • Score: 2

11:01pm Mon 30 Jun 14

Ragwin says...

Huey wrote:
Ragwin wrote:
shaunwww05 wrote:
banned? ... yeah ok its probably people with your attitude that knock people off...
If motorbikes were a recent invention they would never be allowed on the roads in the first place.
Neither would cars. Can you see it on dragons den - "Hi, my invention is something called a car, it runs on a highly flammable liquid, and will need stations selling this to be placed across the country, also it can kill occupants and bystanders if used incorrectly. Oh yes, forgot to say it isn't so great for the environment, plus it costs a fair bit to purchase and run, and will need a well maintained network of roads to work properly."
Yes, cars would also be banned for similar reasons. But they will be banned around 2025 anyway due to oil shortages.
[quote][p][bold]Huey[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ragwin[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]shaunwww05[/bold] wrote: banned? ... yeah ok its probably people with your attitude that knock people off...[/p][/quote]If motorbikes were a recent invention they would never be allowed on the roads in the first place.[/p][/quote]Neither would cars. Can you see it on dragons den - "Hi, my invention is something called a car, it runs on a highly flammable liquid, and will need stations selling this to be placed across the country, also it can kill occupants and bystanders if used incorrectly. Oh yes, forgot to say it isn't so great for the environment, plus it costs a fair bit to purchase and run, and will need a well maintained network of roads to work properly."[/p][/quote]Yes, cars would also be banned for similar reasons. But they will be banned around 2025 anyway due to oil shortages. Ragwin
  • Score: -1

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