VIDEO: Misadventure verdict on the death of Charlotte Furness-Smith who became trapped at Tilly Whim cave

Charlotte Furness-Smith

The family of Charlotte Furness-Smith read a statement after the inquest

Charlotte's uncle, Peter Furness-Smith

First published in News
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A woman who died while coasteering along the Dorset coast put had put herself in a ‘risky situation’ the county’s coroner has ruled

At the end of a two-day Bournemouth inquest Sheriff Payne recorded a verdict of misadventure on 30-year-old Charlotte Furness-Smith.

Meanwhile, a coastguard volunteer will be recommended for a bravery award for his attempts to rescue Miss Furness-Smith who was trapped in a cave in “horrendous sea conditions”.

Mr Payne will write to the Ceremonial Secretariat to suggest a Queen’s Commendation for Bravery for Ian Bugler.

Mr Bugler risked his life to descend into the cave near Swanage in a bid to rescue Miss Furness-Smith who had got into difficulty while coasteering with her brother in November last year.

The London teacher was already dead by the time Mr Bugler entered the cave, prompting criticism from Ms Furness-Smith’s family who believe delays in the rescue operation made it impossible for Charlotte to be rescued in time.

The family also claim key witnesses were not called to give evidence.

Mr Payne said: “The coastguards are all volunteers and do this out of the goodness of their hearts.  They are trained in cliff rescue – they are not trained in cave rescue or anything of that
nature.

“Obviously, there was a sense of urgency by all involved. She (Charlotte) was rapidly getting more terrified of her situation and needed urgent rescue.

“What I cannot ignore is the fact that Charlotte and Alex put themselves in a risky situation in poor weather that was predicted to worsen.”

The tragedy unfolded on November 2 when Charlotte and her brother took part in the adventure activity, which involves free climbing on rocks and swimming.

They were washed into a cave in heavy seas and Alex was able to get out and raise the alarm.

Despite the efforts of rescue teams, Ian Bugler spotted her dead body in the cave.

The conditions were too difficult for a recovery operation and her body has never been found.

The family of Charlotte Furness-Smith giving a statement after the inquest

Mark Rodaway, Portland Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre manager, said: "Any death at sea is a tragedy and has a profound impact on the family, friends and all those involved in the search and rescue operation. Our thoughts are with those that have been affected during this difficult time.

Charlotte's uncle Peter Furness-smith speaking after the inquest

“This was a complex rescue, with winds gusting up to 60mph, horrendous sea conditions combined with high tide and limited access to the cave. This was proven when one of our Coastguard Rescue Officers risked his own life when attempting to abseil down a narrow blow hole.

“I am confident the Coastguard helicopter crew, Coastguard Rescue Teams and the RNLI lifeboat crews on scene that day made every effort while there was still a chance of a successful rescue outcome.”

Comments (35)

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12:28pm Wed 19 Mar 14

SympatheticSam says...

So if I go walking on a motorway and get killed, will emergency services get the blame?
So if I go walking on a motorway and get killed, will emergency services get the blame? SympatheticSam
  • Score: 45

12:41pm Wed 19 Mar 14

The Happy Chatterer says...

Mark Rodaway, Portland Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre manager, said: “..............I am confident the Coastguard helicopter crew, Coastguard Rescue Teams and the RNLI lifeboat crews on scene that day made every effort while there was still a chance of a successful rescue outcome.”

...no mention of the Fire Service here, why??...because they weren't even made aware of the initial call by ANY of the groups mentioned above...let alone the rescue attempt !!

..shame really as they have TWO fully trained and kitted professional Technical Rescue teams that specialise in rope rescue, water rescue and rescue from confined spaces, which would seem to have ticked all of the boxes in this sad case....

Can't help thinking the outcome may have been different if certain organisations' petty 'one-up-man-ship' had been put aside and a more casualty centred approach had been adopted...

...again, very sad all round..,.
Mark Rodaway, Portland Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre manager, said: “..............I am confident the Coastguard helicopter crew, Coastguard Rescue Teams and the RNLI lifeboat crews on scene that day made every effort while there was still a chance of a successful rescue outcome.” ...no mention of the Fire Service here, why??...because they weren't even made aware of the initial call by ANY of the groups mentioned above...let alone the rescue attempt !! ..shame really as they have TWO fully trained and kitted professional Technical Rescue teams that specialise in rope rescue, water rescue and rescue from confined spaces, which would seem to have ticked all of the boxes in this sad case.... Can't help thinking the outcome may have been different if certain organisations' petty 'one-up-man-ship' had been put aside and a more casualty centred approach had been adopted... ...again, very sad all round..,. The Happy Chatterer
  • Score: -67

12:50pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Lord gungedin of Ferndown says...

How terribly sad for the relatives but it is no good just throwing vast sums of money at a Court case in the hope of blaming others. The fact remains the poor lady and her brother decided to get into the sea during a horrendous storm. Nobody forced them to do so and it was a ridiculously selfish thing to do. To attempt to somehow blame the rescue services when the inevitable happened is wrong. If I climb over the fence at the lion enclosure at London zoo can I blame the emergency services if they don't rescue me by the time I am eaten by a lion! Good luck to the family but the legal action has to stop.
How terribly sad for the relatives but it is no good just throwing vast sums of money at a Court case in the hope of blaming others. The fact remains the poor lady and her brother decided to get into the sea during a horrendous storm. Nobody forced them to do so and it was a ridiculously selfish thing to do. To attempt to somehow blame the rescue services when the inevitable happened is wrong. If I climb over the fence at the lion enclosure at London zoo can I blame the emergency services if they don't rescue me by the time I am eaten by a lion! Good luck to the family but the legal action has to stop. Lord gungedin of Ferndown
  • Score: 84

12:58pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Tictock says...

I feel sadness for the family in this sorry episode, however, the risk management taken by this young lady was reckless and put others in danger. And to now start blaming everyone else for her fool-hardiness seems sad and blinded.
I feel sadness for the family in this sorry episode, however, the risk management taken by this young lady was reckless and put others in danger. And to now start blaming everyone else for her fool-hardiness seems sad and blinded. Tictock
  • Score: 77

1:43pm Wed 19 Mar 14

In Absentia says...

This is an absolute tragedy for all concerned, but how on earth could the Coroner arrive at anything but a verdict of Misadventure?
This is an absolute tragedy for all concerned, but how on earth could the Coroner arrive at anything but a verdict of Misadventure? In Absentia
  • Score: 50

2:00pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Cordite says...

Lord gungedin of Ferndown wrote:
How terribly sad for the relatives but it is no good just throwing vast sums of money at a Court case in the hope of blaming others. The fact remains the poor lady and her brother decided to get into the sea during a horrendous storm. Nobody forced them to do so and it was a ridiculously selfish thing to do. To attempt to somehow blame the rescue services when the inevitable happened is wrong. If I climb over the fence at the lion enclosure at London zoo can I blame the emergency services if they don't rescue me by the time I am eaten by a lion! Good luck to the family but the legal action has to stop.
Agree entirely.

The mother questions the ability of the recuers to carry out a risk assessment..........
.perhaps she should have taught her children how to assess risk before playing on cliffs and swimming in unsheltered waters during a storm!!
[quote][p][bold]Lord gungedin of Ferndown[/bold] wrote: How terribly sad for the relatives but it is no good just throwing vast sums of money at a Court case in the hope of blaming others. The fact remains the poor lady and her brother decided to get into the sea during a horrendous storm. Nobody forced them to do so and it was a ridiculously selfish thing to do. To attempt to somehow blame the rescue services when the inevitable happened is wrong. If I climb over the fence at the lion enclosure at London zoo can I blame the emergency services if they don't rescue me by the time I am eaten by a lion! Good luck to the family but the legal action has to stop.[/p][/quote]Agree entirely. The mother questions the ability of the recuers to carry out a risk assessment.......... .perhaps she should have taught her children how to assess risk before playing on cliffs and swimming in unsheltered waters during a storm!! Cordite
  • Score: 80

2:01pm Wed 19 Mar 14

BarrHumbug says...

While I understand the families grief and frustration, seeking to blame the volunteer rescue services is never a good thing and will only result in less volunteers in the future and a lot more lives definitely lost?

What is evident is that they didn't check the weather conditions for that day and/or overestimated their abilities, why should someone else be blamed for that?
While I understand the families grief and frustration, seeking to blame the volunteer rescue services is never a good thing and will only result in less volunteers in the future and a lot more lives definitely lost? What is evident is that they didn't check the weather conditions for that day and/or overestimated their abilities, why should someone else be blamed for that? BarrHumbug
  • Score: 63

2:16pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Humf says...

One would have expected a statement praising the emergency services especially Ian Bulger for attending and trying their best in such dangerous conditions.

I am sorry for your loss but accept the fact that your son and daughter decided to go onto a cliff face in appalling conditions without considering the danger or possibility that things would go wrong. At some point responsibility has to be taken that their decision was wrong and one of them ended up drowning.

Anybody that knows the area would understand that any rescue would have had to be planned and carefully thought out,I think it should be commended that it only took an hour to try everything possible including a member of the coatsgaurd going into a blowhole. What more do you expect them to have tried ?

Every year there are tens of people who come into the area and get into trouble and some sadly lose their lives, if you go into the sea when it clearly looks dangerous you are putting yourselves and other peoples lives at risk. If common sense and rational thinking does not enter your head questionning "this looks a bit dangerous, maybe I ought not to go out climbing or jumping into the sea" then something is seriously lacking.

I find it quite amazing that the family still want to keep pursuing this, it belittles the recommendation of an award for Ian complaining that it took an hour. Everytime this sad tale appears in the news I get annoyed this event occurred because two people jump into a raging sea and it seems that it is not entirely their own fault.

Taking responsibility for your own actions is very rare these days, a product of the "any blame a claim" type mentality that is rife in the UK.
One would have expected a statement praising the emergency services especially Ian Bulger for attending and trying their best in such dangerous conditions. I am sorry for your loss but accept the fact that your son and daughter decided to go onto a cliff face in appalling conditions without considering the danger or possibility that things would go wrong. At some point responsibility has to be taken that their decision was wrong and one of them ended up drowning. Anybody that knows the area would understand that any rescue would have had to be planned and carefully thought out,I think it should be commended that it only took an hour to try everything possible including a member of the coatsgaurd going into a blowhole. What more do you expect them to have tried ? Every year there are tens of people who come into the area and get into trouble and some sadly lose their lives, if you go into the sea when it clearly looks dangerous you are putting yourselves and other peoples lives at risk. If common sense and rational thinking does not enter your head questionning "this looks a bit dangerous, maybe I ought not to go out climbing or jumping into the sea" then something is seriously lacking. I find it quite amazing that the family still want to keep pursuing this, it belittles the recommendation of an award for Ian complaining that it took an hour. Everytime this sad tale appears in the news I get annoyed this event occurred because two people jump into a raging sea and it seems that it is not entirely their own fault. Taking responsibility for your own actions is very rare these days, a product of the "any blame a claim" type mentality that is rife in the UK. Humf
  • Score: 69

2:20pm Wed 19 Mar 14

wintonCheryl says...

Have to agree with all of the posts on here so far. I remember what the weather was like when news of this accident first broke and my immediate thought was "what we're they thinking?".
Have to agree with all of the posts on here so far. I remember what the weather was like when news of this accident first broke and my immediate thought was "what we're they thinking?". wintonCheryl
  • Score: 54

2:47pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Pawnstrar says...

It's very sad when any one dies. But as a Navy reserve officer and the fact that it was too rough to windsurf, which I believe was their first choice of activity that day. What was going though their heads to think coasteering would be any safer .
I'm sorry for their loss, but the only blame should be entirely on Charlotte and her brother.
ill prepared and equipped for such a risky under taking.
I'm all for extreme sports, but basic safety checks like checking the weather and tides are a must on this part of the coast.
The coastguard and RNLI do an excellent job in difficult conditions for no reward other than a job well done
It's very sad when any one dies. But as a Navy reserve officer and the fact that it was too rough to windsurf, which I believe was their first choice of activity that day. What was going though their heads to think coasteering would be any safer . I'm sorry for their loss, but the only blame should be entirely on Charlotte and her brother. ill prepared and equipped for such a risky under taking. I'm all for extreme sports, but basic safety checks like checking the weather and tides are a must on this part of the coast. The coastguard and RNLI do an excellent job in difficult conditions for no reward other than a job well done Pawnstrar
  • Score: 56

3:48pm Wed 19 Mar 14

The Happy Chatterer says...

Pawnstrar wrote:
It's very sad when any one dies. But as a Navy reserve officer and the fact that it was too rough to windsurf, which I believe was their first choice of activity that day. What was going though their heads to think coasteering would be any safer .
I'm sorry for their loss, but the only blame should be entirely on Charlotte and her brother.
ill prepared and equipped for such a risky under taking.
I'm all for extreme sports, but basic safety checks like checking the weather and tides are a must on this part of the coast.
The coastguard and RNLI do an excellent job in difficult conditions for no reward other than a job well done
.......or not, as in this case....
[quote][p][bold]Pawnstrar[/bold] wrote: It's very sad when any one dies. But as a Navy reserve officer and the fact that it was too rough to windsurf, which I believe was their first choice of activity that day. What was going though their heads to think coasteering would be any safer . I'm sorry for their loss, but the only blame should be entirely on Charlotte and her brother. ill prepared and equipped for such a risky under taking. I'm all for extreme sports, but basic safety checks like checking the weather and tides are a must on this part of the coast. The coastguard and RNLI do an excellent job in difficult conditions for no reward other than a job well done[/p][/quote].......or not, as in this case.... The Happy Chatterer
  • Score: -65

4:08pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Pawnstrar says...

The Happy Chatterer wrote:
Pawnstrar wrote:
It's very sad when any one dies. But as a Navy reserve officer and the fact that it was too rough to windsurf, which I believe was their first choice of activity that day. What was going though their heads to think coasteering would be any safer .
I'm sorry for their loss, but the only blame should be entirely on Charlotte and her brother.
ill prepared and equipped for such a risky under taking.
I'm all for extreme sports, but basic safety checks like checking the weather and tides are a must on this part of the coast.
The coastguard and RNLI do an excellent job in difficult conditions for no reward other than a job well done
.......or not, as in this case....
It wasn't the coast guard's fault that they decided to jump into the sea that day!
The rescue workers risked their own lives to make every effort to save someone that should have known better than to enter the water during severe conditions. You don't just dive into the sea without checking the conditions first.
Friends of mine kayak along that stretch of coast and always check tide and weather, they don't just turn up, jump in and hope for the best. My sister in law guides coasteering days in the area and are always prepared. It's not something that should be undertaken on a whim as it was too rough to windsurf.
As most folks have said, it's not the Coastguard's fault. They just have to sort out peoples mistakes
[quote][p][bold]The Happy Chatterer[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Pawnstrar[/bold] wrote: It's very sad when any one dies. But as a Navy reserve officer and the fact that it was too rough to windsurf, which I believe was their first choice of activity that day. What was going though their heads to think coasteering would be any safer . I'm sorry for their loss, but the only blame should be entirely on Charlotte and her brother. ill prepared and equipped for such a risky under taking. I'm all for extreme sports, but basic safety checks like checking the weather and tides are a must on this part of the coast. The coastguard and RNLI do an excellent job in difficult conditions for no reward other than a job well done[/p][/quote].......or not, as in this case....[/p][/quote]It wasn't the coast guard's fault that they decided to jump into the sea that day! The rescue workers risked their own lives to make every effort to save someone that should have known better than to enter the water during severe conditions. You don't just dive into the sea without checking the conditions first. Friends of mine kayak along that stretch of coast and always check tide and weather, they don't just turn up, jump in and hope for the best. My sister in law guides coasteering days in the area and are always prepared. It's not something that should be undertaken on a whim as it was too rough to windsurf. As most folks have said, it's not the Coastguard's fault. They just have to sort out peoples mistakes Pawnstrar
  • Score: 43

4:37pm Wed 19 Mar 14

The Happy Chatterer says...

Pawnstrar wrote:
The Happy Chatterer wrote:
Pawnstrar wrote:
It's very sad when any one dies. But as a Navy reserve officer and the fact that it was too rough to windsurf, which I believe was their first choice of activity that day. What was going though their heads to think coasteering would be any safer .
I'm sorry for their loss, but the only blame should be entirely on Charlotte and her brother.
ill prepared and equipped for such a risky under taking.
I'm all for extreme sports, but basic safety checks like checking the weather and tides are a must on this part of the coast.
The coastguard and RNLI do an excellent job in difficult conditions for no reward other than a job well done
.......or not, as in this case....
It wasn't the coast guard's fault that they decided to jump into the sea that day!
The rescue workers risked their own lives to make every effort to save someone that should have known better than to enter the water during severe conditions. You don't just dive into the sea without checking the conditions first.
Friends of mine kayak along that stretch of coast and always check tide and weather, they don't just turn up, jump in and hope for the best. My sister in law guides coasteering days in the area and are always prepared. It's not something that should be undertaken on a whim as it was too rough to windsurf.
As most folks have said, it's not the Coastguard's fault. They just have to sort out peoples mistakes
I think that there appears to be a lot of people that are missing the families point in all of this. I think that everyone would agree, even the family that due to the severe weather conditions that day the decision to go costeering was one of complete madness and obviously dangerous.

Are we saying that because of that error this poor girl deserved to die??...I do hope not !!

There're seem to be too many people here with the 'it's her own fault' mentality

People make mistakes, and we are fortunate in this country to have some a wide ranging base of emergency services that respond. You may note that I have avoided the use of the word 'accident' in this, as trust me, there is no such thing, there is always an act or omission which is pivotal in the development of the problem.

The families point is, I think, taking into account all of these points and the conditions, was the rescue effort sufficiently urgent and appropriate to the risk. Something that several bystanders, with rescue experience have questioned. It was obviously possible to enter the cave through the blowhole but this was only done when all was already lost.


The question needs to be ask as to why this all took so long.....
[quote][p][bold]Pawnstrar[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Happy Chatterer[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Pawnstrar[/bold] wrote: It's very sad when any one dies. But as a Navy reserve officer and the fact that it was too rough to windsurf, which I believe was their first choice of activity that day. What was going though their heads to think coasteering would be any safer . I'm sorry for their loss, but the only blame should be entirely on Charlotte and her brother. ill prepared and equipped for such a risky under taking. I'm all for extreme sports, but basic safety checks like checking the weather and tides are a must on this part of the coast. The coastguard and RNLI do an excellent job in difficult conditions for no reward other than a job well done[/p][/quote].......or not, as in this case....[/p][/quote]It wasn't the coast guard's fault that they decided to jump into the sea that day! The rescue workers risked their own lives to make every effort to save someone that should have known better than to enter the water during severe conditions. You don't just dive into the sea without checking the conditions first. Friends of mine kayak along that stretch of coast and always check tide and weather, they don't just turn up, jump in and hope for the best. My sister in law guides coasteering days in the area and are always prepared. It's not something that should be undertaken on a whim as it was too rough to windsurf. As most folks have said, it's not the Coastguard's fault. They just have to sort out peoples mistakes[/p][/quote]I think that there appears to be a lot of people that are missing the families point in all of this. I think that everyone would agree, even the family that due to the severe weather conditions that day the decision to go costeering was one of complete madness and obviously dangerous. Are we saying that because of that error this poor girl deserved to die??...I do hope not !! There're seem to be too many people here with the 'it's her own fault' mentality People make mistakes, and we are fortunate in this country to have some a wide ranging base of emergency services that respond. You may note that I have avoided the use of the word 'accident' in this, as trust me, there is no such thing, there is always an act or omission which is pivotal in the development of the problem. The families point is, I think, taking into account all of these points and the conditions, was the rescue effort sufficiently urgent and appropriate to the risk. Something that several bystanders, with rescue experience have questioned. It was obviously possible to enter the cave through the blowhole but this was only done when all was already lost. The question needs to be ask as to why this all took so long..... The Happy Chatterer
  • Score: -38

4:49pm Wed 19 Mar 14

suzigirl says...

Their beautiful child is dead and the family are probably still in shock. My eldest child died nearly six years ago in an RTC and my heart goes out to the family. Let her rest in peace now.............
Their beautiful child is dead and the family are probably still in shock. My eldest child died nearly six years ago in an RTC and my heart goes out to the family. Let her rest in peace now............. suzigirl
  • Score: 13

7:01pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Varnesverry says...

Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing, being able to look back and second guess the people on the spot who are putting their lives at risk to try and rescue someone who has by poor judgement has put themselves in harms way. Whilst I sympathise with the loss of a child and feel sorry for the family, I feel that they should take some responsibility as well for the tragedy instead of hitting out at people who were doing their best under extreme conditions. As a volunteer myself I know we are not doing it for praise or thanks, but this sort of thing does make you question why you bother - but then you just carry on volunteering. They, as parents, have made a huge contribution to the way in which their children made their decisions and this was a mistake which turned into a tragedy, one which they as a family will suffer for for the rest of their lives - but no one would suggest that perhaps they should have done things differently. Let us just hope that people will continue to try and help those in trouble, wherever and whatever the circumstances, knowing they will not always be successful.
Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing, being able to look back and second guess the people on the spot who are putting their lives at risk to try and rescue someone who has by poor judgement has put themselves in harms way. Whilst I sympathise with the loss of a child and feel sorry for the family, I feel that they should take some responsibility as well for the tragedy instead of hitting out at people who were doing their best under extreme conditions. As a volunteer myself I know we are not doing it for praise or thanks, but this sort of thing does make you question why you bother - but then you just carry on volunteering. They, as parents, have made a huge contribution to the way in which their children made their decisions and this was a mistake which turned into a tragedy, one which they as a family will suffer for for the rest of their lives - but no one would suggest that perhaps they should have done things differently. Let us just hope that people will continue to try and help those in trouble, wherever and whatever the circumstances, knowing they will not always be successful. Varnesverry
  • Score: 24

7:29pm Wed 19 Mar 14

cmandorset says...

It is really sad this happened but they were just stupid to go out when the forecast was for high wind. They not only risked and caused one life to be lost, but they also risked the lives of the rescuers. The man should have known better and not that it would serve anything now, should have been prosecuted. Trying to blame the rescue team is just ridiculous and even trained underground rescuers couldn't have got to her due to high waves and they are not trained for that.
It is really sad this happened but they were just stupid to go out when the forecast was for high wind. They not only risked and caused one life to be lost, but they also risked the lives of the rescuers. The man should have known better and not that it would serve anything now, should have been prosecuted. Trying to blame the rescue team is just ridiculous and even trained underground rescuers couldn't have got to her due to high waves and they are not trained for that. cmandorset
  • Score: 16

7:32pm Wed 19 Mar 14

tim m says...

Sometimes things happen, and, no matter how we want to point fingers, no one is to blame. Victims' parents/spouses/frie
nds look somewhere else because they can't bear to think their loved one made a fatal error. Rescuers defend themselves and each other because there's the nagging thought that they could have done something else. There are things that happen because of bad decisions, bad conditions, arrogance or sheer misfortune; and there are tragedies that occur simply because until your time's up, nothing can hurt you, but when it does come up, nothing can save you.
Sometimes things happen, and, no matter how we want to point fingers, no one is to blame. Victims' parents/spouses/frie nds look somewhere else because they can't bear to think their loved one made a fatal error. Rescuers defend themselves and each other because there's the nagging thought that they could have done something else. There are things that happen because of bad decisions, bad conditions, arrogance or sheer misfortune; and there are tragedies that occur simply because until your time's up, nothing can hurt you, but when it does come up, nothing can save you. tim m
  • Score: 5

9:07pm Wed 19 Mar 14

jceasar says...

Pawnstrar wrote:
The Happy Chatterer wrote:
Pawnstrar wrote:
It's very sad when any one dies. But as a Navy reserve officer and the fact that it was too rough to windsurf, which I believe was their first choice of activity that day. What was going though their heads to think coasteering would be any safer .
I'm sorry for their loss, but the only blame should be entirely on Charlotte and her brother.
ill prepared and equipped for such a risky under taking.
I'm all for extreme sports, but basic safety checks like checking the weather and tides are a must on this part of the coast.
The coastguard and RNLI do an excellent job in difficult conditions for no reward other than a job well done
.......or not, as in this case....
It wasn't the coast guard's fault that they decided to jump into the sea that day!
The rescue workers risked their own lives to make every effort to save someone that should have known better than to enter the water during severe conditions. You don't just dive into the sea without checking the conditions first.
Friends of mine kayak along that stretch of coast and always check tide and weather, they don't just turn up, jump in and hope for the best. My sister in law guides coasteering days in the area and are always prepared. It's not something that should be undertaken on a whim as it was too rough to windsurf.
As most folks have said, it's not the Coastguard's fault. They just have to sort out peoples mistakes
Suggesting that the rescue services are never at fault is like saying that one should not be treated by the NHS if you require an operation as a result of a life style choice, ie. Smoking. Is that really your opinion? Think before you write!
No one has suggested that Ian Bulger does not deserve a medal.
[quote][p][bold]Pawnstrar[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Happy Chatterer[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Pawnstrar[/bold] wrote: It's very sad when any one dies. But as a Navy reserve officer and the fact that it was too rough to windsurf, which I believe was their first choice of activity that day. What was going though their heads to think coasteering would be any safer . I'm sorry for their loss, but the only blame should be entirely on Charlotte and her brother. ill prepared and equipped for such a risky under taking. I'm all for extreme sports, but basic safety checks like checking the weather and tides are a must on this part of the coast. The coastguard and RNLI do an excellent job in difficult conditions for no reward other than a job well done[/p][/quote].......or not, as in this case....[/p][/quote]It wasn't the coast guard's fault that they decided to jump into the sea that day! The rescue workers risked their own lives to make every effort to save someone that should have known better than to enter the water during severe conditions. You don't just dive into the sea without checking the conditions first. Friends of mine kayak along that stretch of coast and always check tide and weather, they don't just turn up, jump in and hope for the best. My sister in law guides coasteering days in the area and are always prepared. It's not something that should be undertaken on a whim as it was too rough to windsurf. As most folks have said, it's not the Coastguard's fault. They just have to sort out peoples mistakes[/p][/quote]Suggesting that the rescue services are never at fault is like saying that one should not be treated by the NHS if you require an operation as a result of a life style choice, ie. Smoking. Is that really your opinion? Think before you write! No one has suggested that Ian Bulger does not deserve a medal. jceasar
  • Score: -1

9:16pm Wed 19 Mar 14

O'Reilly says...

The Happy Chatterer wrote:
Mark Rodaway, Portland Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre manager, said: “..............I am confident the Coastguard helicopter crew, Coastguard Rescue Teams and the RNLI lifeboat crews on scene that day made every effort while there was still a chance of a successful rescue outcome.”

...no mention of the Fire Service here, why??...because they weren't even made aware of the initial call by ANY of the groups mentioned above...let alone the rescue attempt !!

..shame really as they have TWO fully trained and kitted professional Technical Rescue teams that specialise in rope rescue, water rescue and rescue from confined spaces, which would seem to have ticked all of the boxes in this sad case....

Can't help thinking the outcome may have been different if certain organisations' petty 'one-up-man-ship' had been put aside and a more casualty centred approach had been adopted...

...again, very sad all round..,.
I see that you have been bombed...I totally agree with you.....Reality is sometimes hard to find.
[quote][p][bold]The Happy Chatterer[/bold] wrote: Mark Rodaway, Portland Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre manager, said: “..............I am confident the Coastguard helicopter crew, Coastguard Rescue Teams and the RNLI lifeboat crews on scene that day made every effort while there was still a chance of a successful rescue outcome.” ...no mention of the Fire Service here, why??...because they weren't even made aware of the initial call by ANY of the groups mentioned above...let alone the rescue attempt !! ..shame really as they have TWO fully trained and kitted professional Technical Rescue teams that specialise in rope rescue, water rescue and rescue from confined spaces, which would seem to have ticked all of the boxes in this sad case.... Can't help thinking the outcome may have been different if certain organisations' petty 'one-up-man-ship' had been put aside and a more casualty centred approach had been adopted... ...again, very sad all round..,.[/p][/quote]I see that you have been bombed...I totally agree with you.....Reality is sometimes hard to find. O'Reilly
  • Score: 4

9:23pm Wed 19 Mar 14

jceasar says...

cmandorset wrote:
It is really sad this happened but they were just stupid to go out when the forecast was for high wind. They not only risked and caused one life to be lost, but they also risked the lives of the rescuers. The man should have known better and not that it would serve anything now, should have been prosecuted. Trying to blame the rescue team is just ridiculous and even trained underground rescuers couldn't have got to her due to high waves and they are not trained for that.
If you had listened to the evidence you would have realised that is nonsense. There was clear evidence that the coastal rescue team did not proceed with any degree of haste nor did they attempt to send a rope down so that the lady could attempt a self-rescue. This should not be read as an attempt to **** ALL members of the rescue services but rather the leadership which on the day was severely criticised by bystanders who were present at the time. As I understand the criticism of the parents, they were hoping the coroner would have thoroughly investigated these allegations. After all that is his job. It appears that he has taken the same rather biased view, which is obviously held by the locals (understandably). This is a pity as no lessons will be learnt.
[quote][p][bold]cmandorset[/bold] wrote: It is really sad this happened but they were just stupid to go out when the forecast was for high wind. They not only risked and caused one life to be lost, but they also risked the lives of the rescuers. The man should have known better and not that it would serve anything now, should have been prosecuted. Trying to blame the rescue team is just ridiculous and even trained underground rescuers couldn't have got to her due to high waves and they are not trained for that.[/p][/quote]If you had listened to the evidence you would have realised that is nonsense. There was clear evidence that the coastal rescue team did not proceed with any degree of haste nor did they attempt to send a rope down so that the lady could attempt a self-rescue. This should not be read as an attempt to **** ALL members of the rescue services but rather the leadership which on the day was severely criticised by bystanders who were present at the time. As I understand the criticism of the parents, they were hoping the coroner would have thoroughly investigated these allegations. After all that is his job. It appears that he has taken the same rather biased view, which is obviously held by the locals (understandably). This is a pity as no lessons will be learnt. jceasar
  • Score: -9

9:33pm Wed 19 Mar 14

jceasar says...

cmandorset wrote:
It is really sad this happened but they were just stupid to go out when the forecast was for high wind. They not only risked and caused one life to be lost, but they also risked the lives of the rescuers. The man should have known better and not that it would serve anything now, should have been prosecuted. Trying to blame the rescue team is just ridiculous and even trained underground rescuers couldn't have got to her due to high waves and they are not trained for that.
You have not listened to the evidence. Firstly, Ian Bulger did get to her but just too late. An extraordinarily brave thing to do. Secondly, no attempt was made by the leadership of the rescue service team to drop a rope so that the lady could rescue herself. This would have involved NO risk to the rescue personnel. Why was this not done? The fact that the coroner failed to get to the truth is the real crime for which he should be ashamed of himself.
BTW, this is not an attempt to deflect blame away from the victim.
[quote][p][bold]cmandorset[/bold] wrote: It is really sad this happened but they were just stupid to go out when the forecast was for high wind. They not only risked and caused one life to be lost, but they also risked the lives of the rescuers. The man should have known better and not that it would serve anything now, should have been prosecuted. Trying to blame the rescue team is just ridiculous and even trained underground rescuers couldn't have got to her due to high waves and they are not trained for that.[/p][/quote]You have not listened to the evidence. Firstly, Ian Bulger did get to her but just too late. An extraordinarily brave thing to do. Secondly, no attempt was made by the leadership of the rescue service team to drop a rope so that the lady could rescue herself. This would have involved NO risk to the rescue personnel. Why was this not done? The fact that the coroner failed to get to the truth is the real crime for which he should be ashamed of himself. BTW, this is not an attempt to deflect blame away from the victim. jceasar
  • Score: 0

10:53pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Yankee1 says...

' prompting criticism from Ms Furness-Smith’s family who believe delays in the rescue operation made it impossible for Charlotte to be rescued in time.'

Astonishing that the bereaved family should place blame on the brave rescuers, when in fact the young lady in question - and her brother - made a very bad decision that led to this tragedy.

In the end, we all are responsible for our own actions. The rescuers, in this case, are blameless. They deserve an apology.
' prompting criticism from Ms Furness-Smith’s family who believe delays in the rescue operation made it impossible for Charlotte to be rescued in time.' Astonishing that the bereaved family should place blame on the brave rescuers, when in fact the young lady in question - and her brother - made a very bad decision that led to this tragedy. In the end, we all are responsible for our own actions. The rescuers, in this case, are blameless. They deserve an apology. Yankee1
  • Score: 5

11:03pm Wed 19 Mar 14

adspacebroker says...

jceasar wrote:
cmandorset wrote:
It is really sad this happened but they were just stupid to go out when the forecast was for high wind. They not only risked and caused one life to be lost, but they also risked the lives of the rescuers. The man should have known better and not that it would serve anything now, should have been prosecuted. Trying to blame the rescue team is just ridiculous and even trained underground rescuers couldn't have got to her due to high waves and they are not trained for that.
You have not listened to the evidence. Firstly, Ian Bulger did get to her but just too late. An extraordinarily brave thing to do. Secondly, no attempt was made by the leadership of the rescue service team to drop a rope so that the lady could rescue herself. This would have involved NO risk to the rescue personnel. Why was this not done? The fact that the coroner failed to get to the truth is the real crime for which he should be ashamed of himself.
BTW, this is not an attempt to deflect blame away from the victim.
I am not even going to vent on your ridiculous comment. The woman was to exhausted to even swim out of the cave so as time went on she obviously became weaker. Nevertheless attempts were made to save the life of the misguided lady who, with her brother, decided to engage in a dangerous activity in 'no'go' conditions. As for the statement of her mother....you disgust me....how dare you question anyone other than the conduct of your own who put the lives of others at risk. Sorry...but fact.
[quote][p][bold]jceasar[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cmandorset[/bold] wrote: It is really sad this happened but they were just stupid to go out when the forecast was for high wind. They not only risked and caused one life to be lost, but they also risked the lives of the rescuers. The man should have known better and not that it would serve anything now, should have been prosecuted. Trying to blame the rescue team is just ridiculous and even trained underground rescuers couldn't have got to her due to high waves and they are not trained for that.[/p][/quote]You have not listened to the evidence. Firstly, Ian Bulger did get to her but just too late. An extraordinarily brave thing to do. Secondly, no attempt was made by the leadership of the rescue service team to drop a rope so that the lady could rescue herself. This would have involved NO risk to the rescue personnel. Why was this not done? The fact that the coroner failed to get to the truth is the real crime for which he should be ashamed of himself. BTW, this is not an attempt to deflect blame away from the victim.[/p][/quote]I am not even going to vent on your ridiculous comment. The woman was to exhausted to even swim out of the cave so as time went on she obviously became weaker. Nevertheless attempts were made to save the life of the misguided lady who, with her brother, decided to engage in a dangerous activity in 'no'go' conditions. As for the statement of her mother....you disgust me....how dare you question anyone other than the conduct of your own who put the lives of others at risk. Sorry...but fact. adspacebroker
  • Score: -2

11:24pm Wed 19 Mar 14

BuffysBrother says...

I am the brother mentioned in this article and whilst I find it equally abhorrent that many people refuse to take responsibilities for their own actions I would like to make a few clarifications.
It is very easy to pass judgment on our motivations as a family having read such an article, particularly when many of the reported facts are incorrect and much of the information is missing.
For the record, we do engage in sports that are considered risky and we appreciate that we must own the associated consequences. For that, both my sister and I have a part to play in this tragedy and I am not trying to duck away from this. Furthermore, this article has failed to mention any of the numerous occasions that we have praised the brave Ian Bugler for his selfless actions.
We do indeed hope he receives his Queen’s Commendation. We also thank the bravery of his father John Bugler for allowing him to make such an attempt. The video conveniently removes the very first part of my mothers statement, praising the bravery of the rescue service.

Our issue is two fold.

Firstly the leadership of the rescue team who steadfastly refused to throw down a rope with a harness in to the cave. In my opinion and those who knew Buffy, she would have had the presence of mind and ability to get herself to the rope so that she could be pulled out. Indeed the coroner and court heard that when the winch operator arrived, before the coastal rescue team, he dropped a throw bag on a line and my sister asked “Would you like me to swim to it?” He told her not to and rightly so, the line was not suitable to pull her vertically up. When suitable equipment arrived on scene this solution was discounted on the grounds that they thought she was on a ledge in a place of relative safety and this solution would place her in further danger. Buffy was never on any ledge, I can attest to this because I was in the cave with her and photos inside the cave taken by the rescue service two days later show no such ledge. On the briefest of enquiries that the coroner made as to why they came to this conclusion, it was apparent that no one knew. The leader based his whole operation on poor information and never once had the wit to question me who was in the helicopter and who had knowledge of both the cave layout and my sisters conditions and abilities.
Despite this rescue being in difficult circumstances that they had never encountered before, when asked if in hindsight he would do anything differently or if any lessons had been learnt the answer was unequivocally no and that there was nothing else they could have done to change the outcome.
Now I appreciate that this is just our opinion but ask yourselves, if an operation is run purely on false information and as a result you discount a plausible rescue option that does not involve putting one of your own men in danger surely if you had the opportunity again you would try this option knowing that every other option resulted in tragedy? In addition one lesson might be, to be more thorough about gathering available intelligence of a situation.
As I say, this is our opinion but I leave it to you to decide if it sounds unreasonable.

Secondly
The Coroner routinely suppressed evidence that was critical of the rescue operation’s leadership. He refused to adjourn the inquest to a time when 3 key witnesses could be present so that they could be questioned despite the pleas of us, our legal team and our Local MP. Because he did not make the proper effort to have these witnesses present or available via video conference then he is in violation of his duties. Finally he failed to investigate numerous obvious questions such as the above as well as ignoring conflicting accounts of evidence. I could go on but I’m conscious of writing too much.

So this is not a case of the bereaved family trying to attribute blame and have a dig at the rescue services, but rather of us trying to uncover the truth. There are many honourable brave men and women in the rescue service who do our country proud and I salute them, but surely you would agree that they can not be above making a mistake or to receive criticism. You wouldn’t have a problem with the criticism or investigation in to a doctor who ignored obvious warnings and failed to diagnose a patient correctly causing them to die, even if the cause of their ailment was as a result of something self inflicted, say binge drinking. Of course not, so ask yourself with out prejudice, if there really was a failing of communication and lessons could be learnt would you really prefer that this was ignored and would you really be satisfied that you lived in a country where the local coroner actively sought to withhold the truth?
The points I make here are far from exhaustive, the truth is a whole lot longer. I do not expect you to take my word for what I have written, I only hope that by reading this you might take a more open view of further information that you will no doubt read in the forthcoming days and consider that if what I say does turn out to be true, are we really being unreasonable?

Finally, our motivation is only to ensure that we do what we can to get the truth for Buffy and ensure that lessons can be learnt so no one else may face the same situation.
I am the brother mentioned in this article and whilst I find it equally abhorrent that many people refuse to take responsibilities for their own actions I would like to make a few clarifications. It is very easy to pass judgment on our motivations as a family having read such an article, particularly when many of the reported facts are incorrect and much of the information is missing. For the record, we do engage in sports that are considered risky and we appreciate that we must own the associated consequences. For that, both my sister and I have a part to play in this tragedy and I am not trying to duck away from this. Furthermore, this article has failed to mention any of the numerous occasions that we have praised the brave Ian Bugler for his selfless actions. We do indeed hope he receives his Queen’s Commendation. We also thank the bravery of his father John Bugler for allowing him to make such an attempt. The video conveniently removes the very first part of my mothers statement, praising the bravery of the rescue service. Our issue is two fold. Firstly the leadership of the rescue team who steadfastly refused to throw down a rope with a harness in to the cave. In my opinion and those who knew Buffy, she would have had the presence of mind and ability to get herself to the rope so that she could be pulled out. Indeed the coroner and court heard that when the winch operator arrived, before the coastal rescue team, he dropped a throw bag on a line and my sister asked “Would you like me to swim to it?” He told her not to and rightly so, the line was not suitable to pull her vertically up. When suitable equipment arrived on scene this solution was discounted on the grounds that they thought she was on a ledge in a place of relative safety and this solution would place her in further danger. Buffy was never on any ledge, I can attest to this because I was in the cave with her and photos inside the cave taken by the rescue service two days later show no such ledge. On the briefest of enquiries that the coroner made as to why they came to this conclusion, it was apparent that no one knew. The leader based his whole operation on poor information and never once had the wit to question me who was in the helicopter and who had knowledge of both the cave layout and my sisters conditions and abilities. Despite this rescue being in difficult circumstances that they had never encountered before, when asked if in hindsight he would do anything differently or if any lessons had been learnt the answer was unequivocally no and that there was nothing else they could have done to change the outcome. Now I appreciate that this is just our opinion but ask yourselves, if an operation is run purely on false information and as a result you discount a plausible rescue option that does not involve putting one of your own men in danger surely if you had the opportunity again you would try this option knowing that every other option resulted in tragedy? In addition one lesson might be, to be more thorough about gathering available intelligence of a situation. As I say, this is our opinion but I leave it to you to decide if it sounds unreasonable. Secondly The Coroner routinely suppressed evidence that was critical of the rescue operation’s leadership. He refused to adjourn the inquest to a time when 3 key witnesses could be present so that they could be questioned despite the pleas of us, our legal team and our Local MP. Because he did not make the proper effort to have these witnesses present or available via video conference then he is in violation of his duties. Finally he failed to investigate numerous obvious questions such as the above as well as ignoring conflicting accounts of evidence. I could go on but I’m conscious of writing too much. So this is not a case of the bereaved family trying to attribute blame and have a dig at the rescue services, but rather of us trying to uncover the truth. There are many honourable brave men and women in the rescue service who do our country proud and I salute them, but surely you would agree that they can not be above making a mistake or to receive criticism. You wouldn’t have a problem with the criticism or investigation in to a doctor who ignored obvious warnings and failed to diagnose a patient correctly causing them to die, even if the cause of their ailment was as a result of something self inflicted, say binge drinking. Of course not, so ask yourself with out prejudice, if there really was a failing of communication and lessons could be learnt would you really prefer that this was ignored and would you really be satisfied that you lived in a country where the local coroner actively sought to withhold the truth? The points I make here are far from exhaustive, the truth is a whole lot longer. I do not expect you to take my word for what I have written, I only hope that by reading this you might take a more open view of further information that you will no doubt read in the forthcoming days and consider that if what I say does turn out to be true, are we really being unreasonable? Finally, our motivation is only to ensure that we do what we can to get the truth for Buffy and ensure that lessons can be learnt so no one else may face the same situation. BuffysBrother
  • Score: 12

11:36pm Wed 19 Mar 14

BuffysBrother says...

Further to my previous post I have the first paragraph of the statement which my mother read out in the above video. This has been edited out.

"The family would like to repeat the commendation of the Coroner as to the bravery of Ian Bugler and everything he did to try and rescue Buffy. We would be delighted if he was awarded a commendation for his bravery."

Judge as you will.
Further to my previous post I have the first paragraph of the statement which my mother read out in the above video. This has been edited out. "The family would like to repeat the commendation of the Coroner as to the bravery of Ian Bugler and everything he did to try and rescue Buffy. We would be delighted if he was awarded a commendation for his bravery." Judge as you will. BuffysBrother
  • Score: 14

5:53am Thu 20 Mar 14

Spareathought says...

Thanks for such a brave account Buffy,s brother.

I hope some of the previous posters can understand the situation a little better now. And understand your remarkably calm request simply that lesson,s are learnt that may improve outcomes in future. You do not seem to be placing blame on rescuers who no doubt did their best in the circumstances but unfortunately seemed to miss opportunities to improve the tragic outcome.

I hope those with opinions on this situation will follow the example of Buffy's brother and express their opinion in a kind, considerate and positive way. There is nothing to be gained from heaping blame on any person, there is much to gain from understanding the situation fully so that future incidents, whatever their cause, may be handled as well as possible.
Thanks for such a brave account Buffy,s brother. I hope some of the previous posters can understand the situation a little better now. And understand your remarkably calm request simply that lesson,s are learnt that may improve outcomes in future. You do not seem to be placing blame on rescuers who no doubt did their best in the circumstances but unfortunately seemed to miss opportunities to improve the tragic outcome. I hope those with opinions on this situation will follow the example of Buffy's brother and express their opinion in a kind, considerate and positive way. There is nothing to be gained from heaping blame on any person, there is much to gain from understanding the situation fully so that future incidents, whatever their cause, may be handled as well as possible. Spareathought
  • Score: 8

5:56am Thu 20 Mar 14

Spareathought says...

Thoughts and sympathy, of course, with all those affected by this.
Thoughts and sympathy, of course, with all those affected by this. Spareathought
  • Score: 4

7:52am Thu 20 Mar 14

anotherfatslob says...

Well,Buffy's bro,first off ,my deepest sympathy goes to you and yours.
Second off,of course she could easily have been saved.
Perhaps you could organise a new branch of the coastguard,made up of fit and skilled people who could prevent anything so tragic and pointless happening again.
I don't agree that anyone deserves any award for bravery in this case,punishment for incompetence would be more fitting.
Well,Buffy's bro,first off ,my deepest sympathy goes to you and yours. Second off,of course she could easily have been saved. Perhaps you could organise a new branch of the coastguard,made up of fit and skilled people who could prevent anything so tragic and pointless happening again. I don't agree that anyone deserves any award for bravery in this case,punishment for incompetence would be more fitting. anotherfatslob
  • Score: -7

9:31am Thu 20 Mar 14

suzigirl says...

BuffysBrother wrote:
I am the brother mentioned in this article and whilst I find it equally abhorrent that many people refuse to take responsibilities for their own actions I would like to make a few clarifications. It is very easy to pass judgment on our motivations as a family having read such an article, particularly when many of the reported facts are incorrect and much of the information is missing. For the record, we do engage in sports that are considered risky and we appreciate that we must own the associated consequences. For that, both my sister and I have a part to play in this tragedy and I am not trying to duck away from this. Furthermore, this article has failed to mention any of the numerous occasions that we have praised the brave Ian Bugler for his selfless actions. We do indeed hope he receives his Queen’s Commendation. We also thank the bravery of his father John Bugler for allowing him to make such an attempt. The video conveniently removes the very first part of my mothers statement, praising the bravery of the rescue service. Our issue is two fold. Firstly the leadership of the rescue team who steadfastly refused to throw down a rope with a harness in to the cave. In my opinion and those who knew Buffy, she would have had the presence of mind and ability to get herself to the rope so that she could be pulled out. Indeed the coroner and court heard that when the winch operator arrived, before the coastal rescue team, he dropped a throw bag on a line and my sister asked “Would you like me to swim to it?” He told her not to and rightly so, the line was not suitable to pull her vertically up. When suitable equipment arrived on scene this solution was discounted on the grounds that they thought she was on a ledge in a place of relative safety and this solution would place her in further danger. Buffy was never on any ledge, I can attest to this because I was in the cave with her and photos inside the cave taken by the rescue service two days later show no such ledge. On the briefest of enquiries that the coroner made as to why they came to this conclusion, it was apparent that no one knew. The leader based his whole operation on poor information and never once had the wit to question me who was in the helicopter and who had knowledge of both the cave layout and my sisters conditions and abilities. Despite this rescue being in difficult circumstances that they had never encountered before, when asked if in hindsight he would do anything differently or if any lessons had been learnt the answer was unequivocally no and that there was nothing else they could have done to change the outcome. Now I appreciate that this is just our opinion but ask yourselves, if an operation is run purely on false information and as a result you discount a plausible rescue option that does not involve putting one of your own men in danger surely if you had the opportunity again you would try this option knowing that every other option resulted in tragedy? In addition one lesson might be, to be more thorough about gathering available intelligence of a situation. As I say, this is our opinion but I leave it to you to decide if it sounds unreasonable. Secondly The Coroner routinely suppressed evidence that was critical of the rescue operation’s leadership. He refused to adjourn the inquest to a time when 3 key witnesses could be present so that they could be questioned despite the pleas of us, our legal team and our Local MP. Because he did not make the proper effort to have these witnesses present or available via video conference then he is in violation of his duties. Finally he failed to investigate numerous obvious questions such as the above as well as ignoring conflicting accounts of evidence. I could go on but I’m conscious of writing too much. So this is not a case of the bereaved family trying to attribute blame and have a dig at the rescue services, but rather of us trying to uncover the truth. There are many honourable brave men and women in the rescue service who do our country proud and I salute them, but surely you would agree that they can not be above making a mistake or to receive criticism. You wouldn’t have a problem with the criticism or investigation in to a doctor who ignored obvious warnings and failed to diagnose a patient correctly causing them to die, even if the cause of their ailment was as a result of something self inflicted, say binge drinking. Of course not, so ask yourself with out prejudice, if there really was a failing of communication and lessons could be learnt would you really prefer that this was ignored and would you really be satisfied that you lived in a country where the local coroner actively sought to withhold the truth? The points I make here are far from exhaustive, the truth is a whole lot longer. I do not expect you to take my word for what I have written, I only hope that by reading this you might take a more open view of further information that you will no doubt read in the forthcoming days and consider that if what I say does turn out to be true, are we really being unreasonable? Finally, our motivation is only to ensure that we do what we can to get the truth for Buffy and ensure that lessons can be learnt so no one else may face the same situation.
and you have to live with the consequences of your actions/decisions for the rest of your life which cannot be easy! When my son died in a RTC I questioned the hospital and the emergency services relating to the "golden hour" and it took a few years before I could finally accept that they did their best......
[quote][p][bold]BuffysBrother[/bold] wrote: I am the brother mentioned in this article and whilst I find it equally abhorrent that many people refuse to take responsibilities for their own actions I would like to make a few clarifications. It is very easy to pass judgment on our motivations as a family having read such an article, particularly when many of the reported facts are incorrect and much of the information is missing. For the record, we do engage in sports that are considered risky and we appreciate that we must own the associated consequences. For that, both my sister and I have a part to play in this tragedy and I am not trying to duck away from this. Furthermore, this article has failed to mention any of the numerous occasions that we have praised the brave Ian Bugler for his selfless actions. We do indeed hope he receives his Queen’s Commendation. We also thank the bravery of his father John Bugler for allowing him to make such an attempt. The video conveniently removes the very first part of my mothers statement, praising the bravery of the rescue service. Our issue is two fold. Firstly the leadership of the rescue team who steadfastly refused to throw down a rope with a harness in to the cave. In my opinion and those who knew Buffy, she would have had the presence of mind and ability to get herself to the rope so that she could be pulled out. Indeed the coroner and court heard that when the winch operator arrived, before the coastal rescue team, he dropped a throw bag on a line and my sister asked “Would you like me to swim to it?” He told her not to and rightly so, the line was not suitable to pull her vertically up. When suitable equipment arrived on scene this solution was discounted on the grounds that they thought she was on a ledge in a place of relative safety and this solution would place her in further danger. Buffy was never on any ledge, I can attest to this because I was in the cave with her and photos inside the cave taken by the rescue service two days later show no such ledge. On the briefest of enquiries that the coroner made as to why they came to this conclusion, it was apparent that no one knew. The leader based his whole operation on poor information and never once had the wit to question me who was in the helicopter and who had knowledge of both the cave layout and my sisters conditions and abilities. Despite this rescue being in difficult circumstances that they had never encountered before, when asked if in hindsight he would do anything differently or if any lessons had been learnt the answer was unequivocally no and that there was nothing else they could have done to change the outcome. Now I appreciate that this is just our opinion but ask yourselves, if an operation is run purely on false information and as a result you discount a plausible rescue option that does not involve putting one of your own men in danger surely if you had the opportunity again you would try this option knowing that every other option resulted in tragedy? In addition one lesson might be, to be more thorough about gathering available intelligence of a situation. As I say, this is our opinion but I leave it to you to decide if it sounds unreasonable. Secondly The Coroner routinely suppressed evidence that was critical of the rescue operation’s leadership. He refused to adjourn the inquest to a time when 3 key witnesses could be present so that they could be questioned despite the pleas of us, our legal team and our Local MP. Because he did not make the proper effort to have these witnesses present or available via video conference then he is in violation of his duties. Finally he failed to investigate numerous obvious questions such as the above as well as ignoring conflicting accounts of evidence. I could go on but I’m conscious of writing too much. So this is not a case of the bereaved family trying to attribute blame and have a dig at the rescue services, but rather of us trying to uncover the truth. There are many honourable brave men and women in the rescue service who do our country proud and I salute them, but surely you would agree that they can not be above making a mistake or to receive criticism. You wouldn’t have a problem with the criticism or investigation in to a doctor who ignored obvious warnings and failed to diagnose a patient correctly causing them to die, even if the cause of their ailment was as a result of something self inflicted, say binge drinking. Of course not, so ask yourself with out prejudice, if there really was a failing of communication and lessons could be learnt would you really prefer that this was ignored and would you really be satisfied that you lived in a country where the local coroner actively sought to withhold the truth? The points I make here are far from exhaustive, the truth is a whole lot longer. I do not expect you to take my word for what I have written, I only hope that by reading this you might take a more open view of further information that you will no doubt read in the forthcoming days and consider that if what I say does turn out to be true, are we really being unreasonable? Finally, our motivation is only to ensure that we do what we can to get the truth for Buffy and ensure that lessons can be learnt so no one else may face the same situation.[/p][/quote]and you have to live with the consequences of your actions/decisions for the rest of your life which cannot be easy! When my son died in a RTC I questioned the hospital and the emergency services relating to the "golden hour" and it took a few years before I could finally accept that they did their best...... suzigirl
  • Score: 6

11:00am Thu 20 Mar 14

afcb-mark says...

suzigirl wrote:
BuffysBrother wrote:
I am the brother mentioned in this article and whilst I find it equally abhorrent that many people refuse to take responsibilities for their own actions I would like to make a few clarifications. It is very easy to pass judgment on our motivations as a family having read such an article, particularly when many of the reported facts are incorrect and much of the information is missing. For the record, we do engage in sports that are considered risky and we appreciate that we must own the associated consequences. For that, both my sister and I have a part to play in this tragedy and I am not trying to duck away from this. Furthermore, this article has failed to mention any of the numerous occasions that we have praised the brave Ian Bugler for his selfless actions. We do indeed hope he receives his Queen’s Commendation. We also thank the bravery of his father John Bugler for allowing him to make such an attempt. The video conveniently removes the very first part of my mothers statement, praising the bravery of the rescue service. Our issue is two fold. Firstly the leadership of the rescue team who steadfastly refused to throw down a rope with a harness in to the cave. In my opinion and those who knew Buffy, she would have had the presence of mind and ability to get herself to the rope so that she could be pulled out. Indeed the coroner and court heard that when the winch operator arrived, before the coastal rescue team, he dropped a throw bag on a line and my sister asked “Would you like me to swim to it?” He told her not to and rightly so, the line was not suitable to pull her vertically up. When suitable equipment arrived on scene this solution was discounted on the grounds that they thought she was on a ledge in a place of relative safety and this solution would place her in further danger. Buffy was never on any ledge, I can attest to this because I was in the cave with her and photos inside the cave taken by the rescue service two days later show no such ledge. On the briefest of enquiries that the coroner made as to why they came to this conclusion, it was apparent that no one knew. The leader based his whole operation on poor information and never once had the wit to question me who was in the helicopter and who had knowledge of both the cave layout and my sisters conditions and abilities. Despite this rescue being in difficult circumstances that they had never encountered before, when asked if in hindsight he would do anything differently or if any lessons had been learnt the answer was unequivocally no and that there was nothing else they could have done to change the outcome. Now I appreciate that this is just our opinion but ask yourselves, if an operation is run purely on false information and as a result you discount a plausible rescue option that does not involve putting one of your own men in danger surely if you had the opportunity again you would try this option knowing that every other option resulted in tragedy? In addition one lesson might be, to be more thorough about gathering available intelligence of a situation. As I say, this is our opinion but I leave it to you to decide if it sounds unreasonable. Secondly The Coroner routinely suppressed evidence that was critical of the rescue operation’s leadership. He refused to adjourn the inquest to a time when 3 key witnesses could be present so that they could be questioned despite the pleas of us, our legal team and our Local MP. Because he did not make the proper effort to have these witnesses present or available via video conference then he is in violation of his duties. Finally he failed to investigate numerous obvious questions such as the above as well as ignoring conflicting accounts of evidence. I could go on but I’m conscious of writing too much. So this is not a case of the bereaved family trying to attribute blame and have a dig at the rescue services, but rather of us trying to uncover the truth. There are many honourable brave men and women in the rescue service who do our country proud and I salute them, but surely you would agree that they can not be above making a mistake or to receive criticism. You wouldn’t have a problem with the criticism or investigation in to a doctor who ignored obvious warnings and failed to diagnose a patient correctly causing them to die, even if the cause of their ailment was as a result of something self inflicted, say binge drinking. Of course not, so ask yourself with out prejudice, if there really was a failing of communication and lessons could be learnt would you really prefer that this was ignored and would you really be satisfied that you lived in a country where the local coroner actively sought to withhold the truth? The points I make here are far from exhaustive, the truth is a whole lot longer. I do not expect you to take my word for what I have written, I only hope that by reading this you might take a more open view of further information that you will no doubt read in the forthcoming days and consider that if what I say does turn out to be true, are we really being unreasonable? Finally, our motivation is only to ensure that we do what we can to get the truth for Buffy and ensure that lessons can be learnt so no one else may face the same situation.
and you have to live with the consequences of your actions/decisions for the rest of your life which cannot be easy! When my son died in a RTC I questioned the hospital and the emergency services relating to the "golden hour" and it took a few years before I could finally accept that they did their best......
I agree with you Suzigirl, it's very easy to question the decision of others when a tragic event like this occurs. There are many questions surrounding this tragedy that nobody will ever know the answer to. If they had not gone coasteering that day in those awful conditions she would still be here and that is the only true fact about this case. Her brother will no doubt feel guilt about this for a very long time because he survived and his sister died. We all do things that after the event may think we were a bit stupid doing and have lived to tell the tale. It's is very sad that this was not he case here and nobody is to blame for that.

If as Buffy's brother says the Echo have omitted the beginning of the family statement where they praised Ian Bulger for his bravery the Echo should take down this video and replace it with the full version.
[quote][p][bold]suzigirl[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]BuffysBrother[/bold] wrote: I am the brother mentioned in this article and whilst I find it equally abhorrent that many people refuse to take responsibilities for their own actions I would like to make a few clarifications. It is very easy to pass judgment on our motivations as a family having read such an article, particularly when many of the reported facts are incorrect and much of the information is missing. For the record, we do engage in sports that are considered risky and we appreciate that we must own the associated consequences. For that, both my sister and I have a part to play in this tragedy and I am not trying to duck away from this. Furthermore, this article has failed to mention any of the numerous occasions that we have praised the brave Ian Bugler for his selfless actions. We do indeed hope he receives his Queen’s Commendation. We also thank the bravery of his father John Bugler for allowing him to make such an attempt. The video conveniently removes the very first part of my mothers statement, praising the bravery of the rescue service. Our issue is two fold. Firstly the leadership of the rescue team who steadfastly refused to throw down a rope with a harness in to the cave. In my opinion and those who knew Buffy, she would have had the presence of mind and ability to get herself to the rope so that she could be pulled out. Indeed the coroner and court heard that when the winch operator arrived, before the coastal rescue team, he dropped a throw bag on a line and my sister asked “Would you like me to swim to it?” He told her not to and rightly so, the line was not suitable to pull her vertically up. When suitable equipment arrived on scene this solution was discounted on the grounds that they thought she was on a ledge in a place of relative safety and this solution would place her in further danger. Buffy was never on any ledge, I can attest to this because I was in the cave with her and photos inside the cave taken by the rescue service two days later show no such ledge. On the briefest of enquiries that the coroner made as to why they came to this conclusion, it was apparent that no one knew. The leader based his whole operation on poor information and never once had the wit to question me who was in the helicopter and who had knowledge of both the cave layout and my sisters conditions and abilities. Despite this rescue being in difficult circumstances that they had never encountered before, when asked if in hindsight he would do anything differently or if any lessons had been learnt the answer was unequivocally no and that there was nothing else they could have done to change the outcome. Now I appreciate that this is just our opinion but ask yourselves, if an operation is run purely on false information and as a result you discount a plausible rescue option that does not involve putting one of your own men in danger surely if you had the opportunity again you would try this option knowing that every other option resulted in tragedy? In addition one lesson might be, to be more thorough about gathering available intelligence of a situation. As I say, this is our opinion but I leave it to you to decide if it sounds unreasonable. Secondly The Coroner routinely suppressed evidence that was critical of the rescue operation’s leadership. He refused to adjourn the inquest to a time when 3 key witnesses could be present so that they could be questioned despite the pleas of us, our legal team and our Local MP. Because he did not make the proper effort to have these witnesses present or available via video conference then he is in violation of his duties. Finally he failed to investigate numerous obvious questions such as the above as well as ignoring conflicting accounts of evidence. I could go on but I’m conscious of writing too much. So this is not a case of the bereaved family trying to attribute blame and have a dig at the rescue services, but rather of us trying to uncover the truth. There are many honourable brave men and women in the rescue service who do our country proud and I salute them, but surely you would agree that they can not be above making a mistake or to receive criticism. You wouldn’t have a problem with the criticism or investigation in to a doctor who ignored obvious warnings and failed to diagnose a patient correctly causing them to die, even if the cause of their ailment was as a result of something self inflicted, say binge drinking. Of course not, so ask yourself with out prejudice, if there really was a failing of communication and lessons could be learnt would you really prefer that this was ignored and would you really be satisfied that you lived in a country where the local coroner actively sought to withhold the truth? The points I make here are far from exhaustive, the truth is a whole lot longer. I do not expect you to take my word for what I have written, I only hope that by reading this you might take a more open view of further information that you will no doubt read in the forthcoming days and consider that if what I say does turn out to be true, are we really being unreasonable? Finally, our motivation is only to ensure that we do what we can to get the truth for Buffy and ensure that lessons can be learnt so no one else may face the same situation.[/p][/quote]and you have to live with the consequences of your actions/decisions for the rest of your life which cannot be easy! When my son died in a RTC I questioned the hospital and the emergency services relating to the "golden hour" and it took a few years before I could finally accept that they did their best......[/p][/quote]I agree with you Suzigirl, it's very easy to question the decision of others when a tragic event like this occurs. There are many questions surrounding this tragedy that nobody will ever know the answer to. If they had not gone coasteering that day in those awful conditions she would still be here and that is the only true fact about this case. Her brother will no doubt feel guilt about this for a very long time because he survived and his sister died. We all do things that after the event may think we were a bit stupid doing and have lived to tell the tale. It's is very sad that this was not he case here and nobody is to blame for that. If as Buffy's brother says the Echo have omitted the beginning of the family statement where they praised Ian Bulger for his bravery the Echo should take down this video and replace it with the full version. afcb-mark
  • Score: 4

12:13pm Thu 20 Mar 14

BuffysBrother says...

I am the brother mentioned in this article, for the benefit of those who are only just reading this I would ask that before you pass any judgment or comment that you first read my initial comment posted Wednesday evening 19 of March that makes some attempt to clarify our position as a family.

I am acutely conscious of diverting attention from my original post and descending in to an internet debate. My posts can and indeed must only be viewed with some skepticism as my position is quite clearly biased.

That said, I would like to address the last two comments and I will do my best to be objective.

Before I start, Suzigirl, my heartfelt condolences to your loss. Sadly I am in a position to relate to the devastation this must have caused in your life.

I will begin with some facts of the case that I highlighted in my previous post. I strongly urge the reader not to take my word for these facts but to independently seek to confirm or disprove them. I will highlight that this is only a small portion of the overall facts and information that is available, and much more exists that is currently outside the public domain.

Fact 1: The reason stated for not initiating a self rescue was that it would take Buffy away from a ledge, a place they believed to be a of relative safety. That and the fact that air blowing up the blowhole meant that it would have pushed back up anything they sent down it.

Fact 2: The winchman previously placed a light rescue line with a waited bag on the end successfully through the blow hole, at which point my sister asked if she should swim to it. She also confirmed her position as being in the water.

Fact 3: Buffy was never on a ledge.

Fact 4: The operation leader was unable to account for his reasons for believing she was in on a ledge in a place of relative safety. Nor was anyone else questioned for that matter although not all key witnesses attended the inquest and not all those who did were asked this question.

Fact 5: The operation leader never made any attempt to pursue information from my self about either the cave layout or the abilities of my sister.

Fact 6: The rescue leadership is of the opinion if they ran the event again they would do nothing different with the exception of refusing to allow Ian Bugler to go down and risk his life unnecessarily. They stated there was nothing different that anyone could have done and that there were no lessons to be learned.

I speculate here because the coroner never asked the question, but had he asked the question, “If you knew that Buffy was never in any position of relative safety and that she had the ability and confidence to attach herself to a rope would you have done something different by dropping a rope for a self rescue?” I assume that the answer would still be no due to Fact 6.

Afcb-mark & Suzigirl

Humor me for a moment and make a very big assumption that these facts are correct. As an intelligent, independent thinking individual would you still agree with the opinions expressed in Fact 6? You do not feel there is anything left unanswered here?

In addition, are you of the opinion that regardless of how an individual gets themselves in to a situation, the rescue service, fire brigade, surgeons, doctors etc are above contestation?

Finally is it your opinion, that there is absolutely no possibility, no matter how small and remote that there maybe some truth to our concerns? And if there is a possibility that there is some truth, is it your opinion that we should not pursue it?
I am the brother mentioned in this article, for the benefit of those who are only just reading this I would ask that before you pass any judgment or comment that you first read my initial comment posted Wednesday evening 19 of March that makes some attempt to clarify our position as a family. I am acutely conscious of diverting attention from my original post and descending in to an internet debate. My posts can and indeed must only be viewed with some skepticism as my position is quite clearly biased. That said, I would like to address the last two comments and I will do my best to be objective. Before I start, Suzigirl, my heartfelt condolences to your loss. Sadly I am in a position to relate to the devastation this must have caused in your life. I will begin with some facts of the case that I highlighted in my previous post. I strongly urge the reader not to take my word for these facts but to independently seek to confirm or disprove them. I will highlight that this is only a small portion of the overall facts and information that is available, and much more exists that is currently outside the public domain. Fact 1: The reason stated for not initiating a self rescue was that it would take Buffy away from a ledge, a place they believed to be a of relative safety. That and the fact that air blowing up the blowhole meant that it would have pushed back up anything they sent down it. Fact 2: The winchman previously placed a light rescue line with a waited bag on the end successfully through the blow hole, at which point my sister asked if she should swim to it. She also confirmed her position as being in the water. Fact 3: Buffy was never on a ledge. Fact 4: The operation leader was unable to account for his reasons for believing she was in on a ledge in a place of relative safety. Nor was anyone else questioned for that matter although not all key witnesses attended the inquest and not all those who did were asked this question. Fact 5: The operation leader never made any attempt to pursue information from my self about either the cave layout or the abilities of my sister. Fact 6: The rescue leadership is of the opinion if they ran the event again they would do nothing different with the exception of refusing to allow Ian Bugler to go down and risk his life unnecessarily. They stated there was nothing different that anyone could have done and that there were no lessons to be learned. I speculate here because the coroner never asked the question, but had he asked the question, “If you knew that Buffy was never in any position of relative safety and that she had the ability and confidence to attach herself to a rope would you have done something different by dropping a rope for a self rescue?” I assume that the answer would still be no due to Fact 6. Afcb-mark & Suzigirl Humor me for a moment and make a very big assumption that these facts are correct. As an intelligent, independent thinking individual would you still agree with the opinions expressed in Fact 6? You do not feel there is anything left unanswered here? In addition, are you of the opinion that regardless of how an individual gets themselves in to a situation, the rescue service, fire brigade, surgeons, doctors etc are above contestation? Finally is it your opinion, that there is absolutely no possibility, no matter how small and remote that there maybe some truth to our concerns? And if there is a possibility that there is some truth, is it your opinion that we should not pursue it? BuffysBrother
  • Score: 2

3:08pm Thu 20 Mar 14

afcb-mark says...

Buffy's brother. My heart goes out to you for the tragic death of your sister and the fact that you had to witness and live through that nightmare. I agree that nothing would have been lost by putting a rope down the blow hole in the hope that your sister could have tried to get herself out of that situation, but I do not think you should pursue this any further. Humoring you is not my intention, your nightmare was followed by many local people who hoped for the best for your dear sister and I for one felt awful for the family when the news of her death was announced. I didn't know your sister, but RIP Buffy and I wish you and your family all the best for your future.
Buffy's brother. My heart goes out to you for the tragic death of your sister and the fact that you had to witness and live through that nightmare. I agree that nothing would have been lost by putting a rope down the blow hole in the hope that your sister could have tried to get herself out of that situation, but I do not think you should pursue this any further. Humoring you is not my intention, your nightmare was followed by many local people who hoped for the best for your dear sister and I for one felt awful for the family when the news of her death was announced. I didn't know your sister, but RIP Buffy and I wish you and your family all the best for your future. afcb-mark
  • Score: 6

3:49pm Thu 20 Mar 14

swanite says...

Buffy's Brother... Firstly and most importantly, my condolences for your and your family's loss. You were put in an impossible situation which no-one should ever have to go through. If you had stayed there then sadly you would have suffered the same fate as Buffy. By managing to leave the cave you at least managed to raise the alarm.
I appreciate you want to get your point across and want to know everything (as anyone would). I would however question putting it on here where anyone can comment on it be they knowledgeable on the circumstances or not.
RIP to your sister.
Buffy's Brother... Firstly and most importantly, my condolences for your and your family's loss. You were put in an impossible situation which no-one should ever have to go through. If you had stayed there then sadly you would have suffered the same fate as Buffy. By managing to leave the cave you at least managed to raise the alarm. I appreciate you want to get your point across and want to know everything (as anyone would). I would however question putting it on here where anyone can comment on it be they knowledgeable on the circumstances or not. RIP to your sister. swanite
  • Score: 0

8:31pm Thu 20 Mar 14

Spareathought says...

Swanite, and mark....you suggest he should not pursue this any further, or discuss it on here....how would you feel?

With this inquest over, and key witnesses whose opinion differed from that of the rescue services not present, it seems the family,s opportunity to promote discussion on this situation through the proper channels is now over.

I assume that is why only now have they begun to discuss it publicly. It seems to me their desire to promote that discussion is as straightfoward and well meaning as that. From open discussion, there may be opportunities to learn and improve from this situation, without apportioning any blame. Unfortunately, the inquest did not allow this to happen.

If this were my family member i would want to promote open discussion so that if there are lessons to be learned, they may be discussed in a positive way that may improve outcomes in the future.

So thank you, Buffy's brother for your bravery in beginning this discussion, my sincere condolences that you were unable to do that through the proper channels.
Swanite, and mark....you suggest he should not pursue this any further, or discuss it on here....how would you feel? With this inquest over, and key witnesses whose opinion differed from that of the rescue services not present, it seems the family,s opportunity to promote discussion on this situation through the proper channels is now over. I assume that is why only now have they begun to discuss it publicly. It seems to me their desire to promote that discussion is as straightfoward and well meaning as that. From open discussion, there may be opportunities to learn and improve from this situation, without apportioning any blame. Unfortunately, the inquest did not allow this to happen. If this were my family member i would want to promote open discussion so that if there are lessons to be learned, they may be discussed in a positive way that may improve outcomes in the future. So thank you, Buffy's brother for your bravery in beginning this discussion, my sincere condolences that you were unable to do that through the proper channels. Spareathought
  • Score: 1

10:08am Fri 21 Mar 14

suzigirl says...

BuffysBrother wrote:
I am the brother mentioned in this article, for the benefit of those who are only just reading this I would ask that before you pass any judgment or comment that you first read my initial comment posted Wednesday evening 19 of March that makes some attempt to clarify our position as a family. I am acutely conscious of diverting attention from my original post and descending in to an internet debate. My posts can and indeed must only be viewed with some skepticism as my position is quite clearly biased. That said, I would like to address the last two comments and I will do my best to be objective. Before I start, Suzigirl, my heartfelt condolences to your loss. Sadly I am in a position to relate to the devastation this must have caused in your life. I will begin with some facts of the case that I highlighted in my previous post. I strongly urge the reader not to take my word for these facts but to independently seek to confirm or disprove them. I will highlight that this is only a small portion of the overall facts and information that is available, and much more exists that is currently outside the public domain. Fact 1: The reason stated for not initiating a self rescue was that it would take Buffy away from a ledge, a place they believed to be a of relative safety. That and the fact that air blowing up the blowhole meant that it would have pushed back up anything they sent down it. Fact 2: The winchman previously placed a light rescue line with a waited bag on the end successfully through the blow hole, at which point my sister asked if she should swim to it. She also confirmed her position as being in the water. Fact 3: Buffy was never on a ledge. Fact 4: The operation leader was unable to account for his reasons for believing she was in on a ledge in a place of relative safety. Nor was anyone else questioned for that matter although not all key witnesses attended the inquest and not all those who did were asked this question. Fact 5: The operation leader never made any attempt to pursue information from my self about either the cave layout or the abilities of my sister. Fact 6: The rescue leadership is of the opinion if they ran the event again they would do nothing different with the exception of refusing to allow Ian Bugler to go down and risk his life unnecessarily. They stated there was nothing different that anyone could have done and that there were no lessons to be learned. I speculate here because the coroner never asked the question, but had he asked the question, “If you knew that Buffy was never in any position of relative safety and that she had the ability and confidence to attach herself to a rope would you have done something different by dropping a rope for a self rescue?” I assume that the answer would still be no due to Fact 6. Afcb-mark & Suzigirl Humor me for a moment and make a very big assumption that these facts are correct. As an intelligent, independent thinking individual would you still agree with the opinions expressed in Fact 6? You do not feel there is anything left unanswered here? In addition, are you of the opinion that regardless of how an individual gets themselves in to a situation, the rescue service, fire brigade, surgeons, doctors etc are above contestation? Finally is it your opinion, that there is absolutely no possibility, no matter how small and remote that there maybe some truth to our concerns? And if there is a possibility that there is some truth, is it your opinion that we should not pursue it?
I just want to give you a big hug............
[quote][p][bold]BuffysBrother[/bold] wrote: I am the brother mentioned in this article, for the benefit of those who are only just reading this I would ask that before you pass any judgment or comment that you first read my initial comment posted Wednesday evening 19 of March that makes some attempt to clarify our position as a family. I am acutely conscious of diverting attention from my original post and descending in to an internet debate. My posts can and indeed must only be viewed with some skepticism as my position is quite clearly biased. That said, I would like to address the last two comments and I will do my best to be objective. Before I start, Suzigirl, my heartfelt condolences to your loss. Sadly I am in a position to relate to the devastation this must have caused in your life. I will begin with some facts of the case that I highlighted in my previous post. I strongly urge the reader not to take my word for these facts but to independently seek to confirm or disprove them. I will highlight that this is only a small portion of the overall facts and information that is available, and much more exists that is currently outside the public domain. Fact 1: The reason stated for not initiating a self rescue was that it would take Buffy away from a ledge, a place they believed to be a of relative safety. That and the fact that air blowing up the blowhole meant that it would have pushed back up anything they sent down it. Fact 2: The winchman previously placed a light rescue line with a waited bag on the end successfully through the blow hole, at which point my sister asked if she should swim to it. She also confirmed her position as being in the water. Fact 3: Buffy was never on a ledge. Fact 4: The operation leader was unable to account for his reasons for believing she was in on a ledge in a place of relative safety. Nor was anyone else questioned for that matter although not all key witnesses attended the inquest and not all those who did were asked this question. Fact 5: The operation leader never made any attempt to pursue information from my self about either the cave layout or the abilities of my sister. Fact 6: The rescue leadership is of the opinion if they ran the event again they would do nothing different with the exception of refusing to allow Ian Bugler to go down and risk his life unnecessarily. They stated there was nothing different that anyone could have done and that there were no lessons to be learned. I speculate here because the coroner never asked the question, but had he asked the question, “If you knew that Buffy was never in any position of relative safety and that she had the ability and confidence to attach herself to a rope would you have done something different by dropping a rope for a self rescue?” I assume that the answer would still be no due to Fact 6. Afcb-mark & Suzigirl Humor me for a moment and make a very big assumption that these facts are correct. As an intelligent, independent thinking individual would you still agree with the opinions expressed in Fact 6? You do not feel there is anything left unanswered here? In addition, are you of the opinion that regardless of how an individual gets themselves in to a situation, the rescue service, fire brigade, surgeons, doctors etc are above contestation? Finally is it your opinion, that there is absolutely no possibility, no matter how small and remote that there maybe some truth to our concerns? And if there is a possibility that there is some truth, is it your opinion that we should not pursue it?[/p][/quote]I just want to give you a big hug............ suzigirl
  • Score: 3

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